How are we affording all this welfare?

Outcast440 · 2 Aug 2020 at 07:49

Give it a few more years and young people are going to have to start working in legalised brothels etc..to pay for this self-imposed economic disaster!

HACO · 2 Aug 2020 at 09:29

Sythe79 said:
Minimum wage for an adult over 25 is, currently £7.83 that equates to an annual salary of £16,286.40 for a full time worker....

If you wanted to pay that to the 81.1‰ if the population that are adults (2016 figures) (that's circa 53.7 million people) that would mean annual payments of circa 874.5 billion pounds annually.. ...

Total goverment spending in 2016 on everything, including existing welfare was 762.3 billion

And of course Ubi could not 'universally' replace all existing welfare either as extra payments would still be required for families with lots of children and certain disabled people for example.....

UBI would overnight double governmental spending requiring massive, unprecedented changes to taxation.

It would have course cause a whole host of other issues .... Including but not limited to

1) increasing immigration of those seeking UBI

2) increasing emigration of higher paid/skilled workers who would have to pay considerably higher taxes to support UBI payments

3) incentivising people to stay away from regular employment with a bit a bit of work in the 'untaxed' part of the economy being preferable

and 4) causing massive problems with inflation by ensuring that UBI remained enough to be considered a 'basic income' ...

Nice cherry picking of the points to support you're point of view

1. not even the most lefty of UBI supporter thinks it should be 16k a year, even 12k would be on the high side
2. the whole point is that IS it, no other benefits, reducing admin costs
3. You would need to be a GB citizen to claim UBI, which leads to...
4. Working regulations would be relaxed, you could conceivably get rid of minimum wage laws and employment protection all together, low skilled immigration would be reduced too....... in theory, a Britsh low skilled worker is subsidised by UBI while imported labour is not
5. Taxation is simplified too, no more tax codes, you pay tax on everything you earn.

Of course there are problems with it, there are problems with the current system too the main one we face now which is extracting tax from none PAYE wealth, but that's not a new problem.

The biggest problem is a change in attitude of what work and what we as hopefully a first world nation going forward actually are, better to be prepared with a system that somewhat works for us than not to, because the changes are coming economically whether we like it or not, and a lot of people in so called safe white collar jobs are going to feel it too, not just the lower class plebs that can be ignored.

Those numbers are way too much, proposals that I've seen usually speak for about £400 per month for adults and £200 per month for children. That's £4,800 per year for an adult, and let's say we're doing it for 54 million people, that's roughly £250 billion a year.

This can be done by an additional UBI progressive tax in addition to income tax and NI contribution (or can be merged with either of these). Higher rate taxpayers are likely to pay an extra 15% (so 57% marginal after £50k and 62% after £150k), and basic rate taxpayers will need to pay about 10% extra tax (42% marginal tax rate). This puts the break-even point at slightly above £50k of income.

This is without any savings from existing welfare programs. Not all, but some will have to be cut down or scrapped.

inogen · 2 Aug 2020 at 12:15

Caracus2k said:
Societies have tried 'different ways of allocating resources and wealth' before.

They failed, consistently. Market systems which include people selling their labour and expertise on the market are the only systems that work for actually having the chance of advancing society as a whole.

Yes, they have. And the system we're currently tethered too will also currently failing and will eventually collapse without some pretty drastic measures to address income equality and environmental damage.

And yes, this has to be done internationally. But we have to start somewhere...

Caracus2k · 2 Aug 2020 at 13:19

HACO said:
Those numbers are way too much, proposals that I've seen usually speak for about £400 per month for adults and £200 per month for children. That's £4,800 per year for an adult, and let's say we're doing it for 54 million people, that's roughly £250 billion a year.

£400 per month for an adult is no where near enough for it to be a basic income.

The state pension is over £9,100 for a single adult

Of course pensioners often also receive a number of other subsidies and benefits from the state aswell like the winter fuel payment.

Citizens advice think the 'average' amount of money a single person would need to avoid getting into financial difficulties is £960 per month.

Of course with this being an average demonstrates part of the problem with UBI. Namely that it can't do away with the need for some means testing.

So somewhere around £500 billion is far more realistic even for the most basic of incomes to be paid to all.

Blackjack Davy · 2 Aug 2020 at 13:21

Outcast440 said:
Give it a few more years and young people are going to have to start working in legalised brothels etc..to pay for this self-imposed economic disaster!

Most of the increase in the north appears to be driven by young people who are giving authority the finger and basically saying stop spoiling our fun oldies!

Minusorange · 2 Aug 2020 at 13:30

Caracus2k said:
Citizens advice think the 'average' amount of money a single person would need to avoid getting into financial difficulties is £960 per month.

But does that include luxuries ?

A universal BASIC income is just that.... basic, it should be enough to put a roof over your head, pay your bills and allow you to feed and clothe yourself (maybe stretch to internet & telephone too), any extras like electronic goods, vehicles, holidays, short trips away...... get a job to pay for it

Twinz · 2 Aug 2020 at 13:35

inogen said:
.... address income equality....

I have yet to see anyone provide a decent explaination for why I should care that my neighbor has more money than me.

Envy will probably always exist.

HACO · 2 Aug 2020 at 13:55

Caracus2k said:
£400 per month for an adult is no where near enough for it to be a basic income.

The state pension is over £9,100 for a single adult

Of course pensioners often also receive a number of other subsidies and benefits from the state aswell like the winter fuel payment.

Citizens advice think the 'average' amount of money a single person would need to avoid getting into financial difficulties is £960 per month.

Of course with this being an average demonstrates part of the problem with UBI. Namely that it can't do away with the need for some means testing.

So somewhere around £500 billion is far more realistic even for the most basic of incomes to be paid to all.

It’s not supposed to be enough for adults to fully live on. UBI isn’t supposed to replace all income.

This isn’t “nationalise all income” communism.

Caracus2k · 2 Aug 2020 at 14:25

HACO said:
It’s not supposed to be enough for adults to fully live on. UBI isn’t supposed to replace all income.

This isn’t “nationalise all income” communism.

So UBI is not a basic income in your view....
Sorry what was the point of UBI again?

First link on a google search for 'what is UBI UK'

At its core, it is based on the principle that every individual should always have a minimum (basic) income floor that ensures survival. This is achieved by implementing a regular cash transfer to all qualifying citizens/residents. But for any transfer scheme to properly be considered UBI, it has to be:

The amount you quoted is not enough for people to survive on without other benefits. The citizens advice bureau says an adult would need an average of £960 per month in the UK to meet their basic needs without getting into financial difficulty.

Caracus2k · 2 Aug 2020 at 14:29

Minusorange said:
But does that include luxuries ?

Nope

'From our debt work, we know that on average a single person has necessary outgoings of £960 per month.'

HACO · 2 Aug 2020 at 14:55

Caracus2k said:
So UBI is not a basic income in your view....
Sorry what was the point of UBI again?

First link on a google search for 'what is UBI UK'

The amount you quoted is not enough for people to survive on without other benefits. The citizens advice bureau says an adult would need an average of £960 per month in the UK to meet their basic needs without getting into financial difficulty.

It ensures survival on top of other programs that do/will exist. Even without UBI nobody is in struggle for their survival in this country. Can’t see how you can argue that an extra £400 makes them less likely to survive.

eddiemcgarrigle · 2 Aug 2020 at 22:47

Scotland affords freebie welfare goodies using English tax monies. Lobby your MP to stop this outrage and end the Union.

HACO · 2 Aug 2020 at 22:50

eddiemcgarrigle said:
Scotland affords freebie welfare goodies using English tax monies. Lobby your MP to stop this outrage and end the Union.

That won't end anything.

R.P.L · 3 Aug 2020 at 09:27

FoxEye said:
Except that money can screw up.

Ie, using money we could end up in a situation where everybody loses their job and we all basically starve to death, because nobody can pay for anyone to do any work.

It's a frighteningly real prospect if financial systems "crash".

Whereas if everybody just kept working essentially nobody would need to starve. The food could keep being grown and distributed.

Ie, it isn't a problem due to lack of labour or resources, or inability to produce essentials.

But because everything is driven by money, the second people don't get paid they stop working, and if everybody stops working because your currency is worthless, then... we all starve. Yay. Go money

Yeah, and if we all returned to subsistence farming and there was a bad crop then loads of people would starve. There are no guarantees in life, and there's no system that is completely fail-safe. I'm not sure what you mean by "if everybody just kept working essentially nobody would need to starve" - most people's jobs have nothing to do with food supply, so they could keep working for nothing if they wanted, but it wouldn't help to feed anyone.

Outcast440 · 4 Aug 2020 at 10:52

UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

Outcast440 · 4 Aug 2020 at 10:54

Blackjack Davy said:
Most of the increase in the north appears to be driven by young people who are giving authority the finger and basically saying stop spoiling our fun oldies!

Now I see why they want to lock all the oldies (50+) up!

does seem ridiculous - most deaths are in care homes, those elderly or sick, and the WHOLE country is locked up - WTF!!

MikeTheNative · 4 Aug 2020 at 11:30

Outcast440 said:
UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

Isn't the idea that your job would add to the UBI you get, it wouldn't replace it.

krooton · 4 Aug 2020 at 11:32

Outcast440 said:
UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

The idea is that you could pursue jobs where have interest or passion for, that might not necessarily be enough to support you in the current structure.

That way you have more people doing things they enjoy, rather than just taking any old job just to survive.

For that to actually work though, there would need to be quite a shift in the general mentality of people, so the current generations are pretty much a write-off.

Greebo · 4 Aug 2020 at 12:05

Outcast440 said:
UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

You dont get it. Its not a replacement. Its just a baseline amount. If you go out and get a minimum wage job on top then you have more money to spend and buy better things.

If you want to be a waste of space in life and survive off peanuts then stay home and live off the universal credit.

It needs a massive change in mindset as after decades of the scum papers like the DM and express drumming it into people that all people on benefits are dossers and the pits of society and don;t deserve any money, its going to be a hard sell to convince people that its fine to give everybody UI

413x · 4 Aug 2020 at 12:38

Greebo said:
You dont get it. Its not a replacement. Its just a baseline amount. If you go out and get a minimum wage job on top then you have more money to spend and buy better things.

If you want to be a waste of space in life and survive off peanuts then stay home and live off the universal credit.

It needs a massive change in mindset as after decades of the scum papers like the DM and express drumming it into people that all people on benefits are dossers and the pits of society and don;t deserve any money, its going to be a hard sell to convince people that its fine to give everybody UI

I doubt it will happen until the system starts to collapse.
Would take a lot of people in much worse position than they are now to get any headway.

Is it even workable? Sounds too good to be true really. Everything we have currently is due to exploitation of someone else