How are we affording all this welfare?

sigma · 4 Aug 2020 at 12:40

Outcast440 said:
UBI is an absurd idea - I mean, what would be the point of doing a min wage job if you could get the same for just chilling out at home?

Isn’t that what some people already do?

Greebo · 4 Aug 2020 at 12:56

413x said:
I doubt it will happen until the system starts to collapse.
Would take a lot of people in much worse position than they are now to get any headway.

Is it even workable? Sounds too good to be true really. Everything we have currently is due to exploitation of someone else

It is workable if people are of the right mindset (not sure British people are) and is the way forward IMO. Lots of other countries are seriously looking at doing it. Its just a question of when you start implementing it.

Semple · 4 Aug 2020 at 13:34

Greebo said:
If you want to be a waste of space in life and survive off peanuts then stay home and live off the universal credit.

I can't ever see it happening because the "minimum to survive" can be very subjective, and also various factors such as area of the country that you live in will play a huge part in the minimum required.

I.e. someone up in Newcastle could probably very easily survive on 1k a month for rent+bills+food without needing to go to work etc. Whereas you couldn't do the same in London. This would end up driving out poor people in cities to less desirable locations.

Yes you could have different levels of minimums, but then comes the question of fairness, why is it fair to pay person A a bigger UBI just because they live in London compared to person B who lives in Newcastle.

Greebo · 4 Aug 2020 at 14:10

Semple said:
I can't ever see it happening because the "minimum to survive" can be very subjective, and also various factors such as area of the country that you live in will play a huge part in the minimum required.

I.e. someone up in Newcastle could probably very easily survive on 1k a month for rent+bills+food without needing to go to work etc. Whereas you couldn't do the same in London. This would end up driving out poor people in cities to less desirable locations.

Yes you could have different levels of minimums, but then comes the question of fairness, why is it fair to pay person A a bigger UBI just because they live in London compared to person B who lives in Newcastle.

UBI should just be UBI. Its a baseline across the country. You keep it simple, Obviously people in London will be able to go out and earn much more on top than people up North.

Thats why silly figures of UBI of £20k per annum and even £12k per annum is just designed to make people dismiss it,

HACO · 4 Aug 2020 at 14:35

Greebo said:
UBI should just be UBI. Its a baseline across the country. You keep it simple, Obviously people in London will be able to go out and earn much more on top than people up North.

Thats why silly figures of UBI of £20k per annum and even £12k per annum is just designed to make people dismiss it,

Agreed. The 2016 pilot in Italy was 450 Euros per month per household for example.

Ryan-3 · 4 Aug 2020 at 14:46

Bear said:
Even Norway has a national debt, it’s 37% of GDP. It’s wealth fund could probably pay it off easily but for some reason they keep it at 37%.

Keeps their credit score looking good...

At the rate the debt seems to grow, it's the old magic money tree. Wherever we're headed to is likely to mean an even larger divide between the rich and poor.

Guest2 · 4 Aug 2020 at 15:08

By taxing the ones who try harder than others to the eyeballs

FoxEye · 5 Aug 2020 at 23:19

Greebo said:
It is workable if people are of the right mindset (not sure British people are) and is the way forward IMO. Lots of other countries are seriously looking at doing it. Its just a question of when you start implementing it.

Brits have embraced the dog-eat-dog, climb over the others to get to the top mentality.

It would never work here. Rargh rargh benefit scroungers, I'm a self-made man, why should I pay taxes (etc).

Outcast440 · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:10

Greebo said:
You dont get it. Its not a replacement. Its just a baseline amount. If you go out and get a minimum wage job on top then you have more money to spend and buy better things.

And is there a cut off - I mean do 'wealthy' people get UBI as well, and if so, then who the F's gonna pay for all this?

Outcast440 · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:12

Greebo said:
You dont get it. Its not a replacement. Its just a baseline amount. If you go out and get a minimum wage job on top then you have more money to spend and buy better things.

If you want to be a waste of space in life and survive off peanuts then stay home and live off the universal credit.

Over time, anyone working a very low quality min wage job would just go part time, with the UBI topping that up nicely. So, who's gonna do all the crap jobs?

StriderX · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:13

Outcast440 said:
Over time, anyone working a very low quality min wage job would just go part time, with the UBI topping that up nicely. So, who's gonna do all the **** jobs?

People who want more money?

Outcast440 · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:14

do you mean mass immigration all over again??

StriderX · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:22

Then automate it if no one wants to do it, why the hell do people have to do ****** jobs? It's a necessity until it isn't and incentivising stagnation in society isn't wise.

Greebo · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:25

Outcast440 said:
Over time, anyone working a very low quality min wage job would just go part time, with the UBI topping that up nicely. So, who's gonna do all the crap jobs?

The same people who do them now? Everybody seems to agree we cant afford to pay people £20 per hour to do these crap jobs so nothing would change in that respect.

Greebo · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:34

Outcast440 said:
And is there a cut off - I mean do 'wealthy' people get UBI as well, and if so, then who the F's gonna pay for all this?

No there is no cut off. Universal means Universal otherwise it doesnt work. Its not welfare.

And if you read up on it all, you move over to a system where the companies pay more tax, not the people. Plus it would be taxable income so obviously people on £150k would pay almost half back as tax.

It simplifies lots of complicated tax/welfare/pension systems and replaces some of them over time. Finland is planning on setting theirs at £576 per month tax free and abolishing all benefits. Netherlands and 19 other countries are currently trialling Universal income.

Have a read:

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/17048/government/universal-basic-income/

https://www.thebalance.com/universal-basic-income-4160668

413x · 7 Aug 2020 at 08:55

I can't wrap my head around how it would work

If everyone had more money wouldn't inflation just spike?

HACO · 7 Aug 2020 at 09:09

413x said:
I can't wrap my head around how it would work

If everyone had more money wouldn't inflation just spike?

Depends on the source of money. Generally with UBI, some people will have more money and some people will have less (they pay more in UBI taxes than they get in UBI payments), and it should cancel itself out. If you just print money and give it to everyone, then sure it will cause hyperinflation.

HACO · 7 Aug 2020 at 09:10

Outcast440 said:
And is there a cut off - I mean do 'wealthy' people get UBI as well, and if so, then who the F's gonna pay for all this?

They get UBI, but they also get taxed extra (to pay for UBI). At some point in the income spectrum, these two will be equal (let's say £50k). So anyone making above it pays more than they get, anyone under it pays less than they get.

413x · 7 Aug 2020 at 09:11

HACO said:
Depends on the source of money. Generally with UBI, some people will have more money and some people will have less (they pay more in UBI taxes than they get in UBI payments), and it should cancel itself out. If you just print money and give it to everyone, then sure it will cause hyperinflation.

Surely thier isn't enough rich people to do this?

I mean personal taxes couldn't pay for it entirely? And we all know raising corporation tax in our world economic model pushes business out?

Can an Internet sales tax even make this workable?

HACO · 7 Aug 2020 at 09:15

413x said:
Surely thier isn't enough rich people to do this?

I mean personal taxes couldn't pay for it entirely? And we all know raising corporation tax in our world economic model pushes business out?

Can an Internet sales tax even make this workable?

Current taxes can't pay for it. There will have to be extra taxes introduced. Part of the burden may go to corporations, part of it may go to consumption (increase in VAT, etc) but the bulk of it will just be extra income tax.

Whether there are enough rich people to do it depends on how much the payment is (£400 a month? We can do it. £2000 a month? Nope).