Significant incident Plymouth

[BallistixOnZ490]

No point to banning guns when such people would just use other weapons instead, but I didn't even know you could have firearm permits in the UK.

 

[Rroff]

You can't make your argument consistent with anything, including itself, and now you're resorting to nonsense about cricket bats, baseball bats and suchlike having "a intrinsic rule in society". At best that's arguing that something should be legal solely because it's common enough and that not being common enough is a good enough reason to make something illegal. But without actually meaning it, since guns are more common than baseball bats in the USA.

A wooden bat started life as a club to bludgeon people with, until we started playing sports with them. So screw the people who enjoy playing baseball or whatever they can find another hobby so no one ever gets killed by a bat again.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

You are seriously comparing a gun with a car and piece of sports equipment ?

Maybe compare the amount of people who are killed in the US with guns compared to sports equipment or deliberate vehicle murders!

Your argument is asinine.

A wooden bat started life as a club to bludgeon people with, until we started playing sports with them. So screw the people who enjoy playing baseball or whatever they can find another hobby so no one ever gets killed by a bat again.

You are so disingenuous, if you sincerely believe Jake Davison would have killed 6 people with a 'wooden bat' then you are beyond help!

 

[Rroff]

You are seriously comparing a gun with a car and piece of sports equipment ?

Maybe compare the amount of people who are killed in the US with guns compared to sports equipment or deliberate vehicle murders!

Your argument is asinine.

The US is a different story again - some fairly simple changes would cut firearms deaths in that country by about 75% alone without getting anywhere close to a total ban. Stuff like this is extremely rare in this country fortunately despite there being nearly 2 million legal firearms and several thousands in the hands of criminals (not including those stashed by the likes of the IRA, etc. and illegal antiques/souvenirs)

 

[Longbow]

You are so disingenuous, if you sincerely believe Jake Davison would have killed 6 people with a 'wooden bat' then you are beyond help!

You're being disingenuous. You say it's all about saving lives, but when asked about bats you move the goalposts and say those are fine. If people die from firearms, and thus should be banned, then surely bats should be too? They're only recreational after all.

 

[C.R.A.Z.Y]

Sports equipment is used by millions of people for recreation and are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to kill with.
The fact you are comparing a device designed to kill with a piece of sports equipment shows how pathetic your argument is

 

[Rroff]

Sports equipment is used by millions of people for recreation and are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to kill with.
The fact you are comparing a device designed to kill with a piece of sports equipment shows how pathetic your argument is

A cricket bat is just a club "designed" for playing sports.

Personally I'm against civilian ownership of fully, or even semi, automatic firearms which do make it significantly easier to kill with but that is another story.

 

[Longbow]

Sports equipment is used by millions of people for recreation and are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to kill with.
The fact you are comparing a device designed to kill with a piece of sports equipment shows how pathetic your argument is

So you accept that people will inevitably be killed by keeping these weapons recreational objects legal? Because people enjoying these objects is more important than human life?

 

[Hotwired]

Because road transport is esential for modern life

Legal gun ownership for sport is utterly pointless?

You're not even trying to make sense. You list a purpose then immediately pretend you didn't.

 

[Angilion]

Sports equipment is used by millions of people for recreation and are SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult to kill with.
The fact you are comparing a device designed to kill with a piece of sports equipment shows how pathetic your argument is

We're using your argument. That's the point.


As a secondary point, both clubs and guns were designed as weapons, i.e. designed to kill. Both clubs and guns are vastly more often used for sport.

But the main point is that the argument you describe as pathetic is your argument.

 

[Mason-]

This is a pretty questionable argument. If it was happening very often I'd agree with you, but it's not. Compare gun related incidents in UK vs US? Why do we have significantly less, because we have gun control laws. They work, demonstrably. I can guarantee you there is no law you can enforce that would stop these things from happening. Bad people do bad things. You will find this in every history book since we could write.

Stabbing happens with kitchen knife -> knife licenses on all knives. Have to be stored in a special knife cabinet that a police man has to inspect regularly.
Someone kills someone while speeding -> GPS based speed limiters in all cars so that no one can exceed speed limits.
Man molests child -> Humans aren't allowed to interact with anyone under the age of 18 unless they're their own children.

We can all come up with ridiculous laws/restrictions to reduce crimes. You have to balance it with freedoms. The current gun laws are fine for the most part. Gun related incidents in the UK are very low. I think that we should have more checks and balances on gun owners with regards to their mental state. But ultimately no matter what is done we won't be able to prevent this happening completely.

Don’t waste your time he’s as CRAZY as his username implies. He made the exact same argument 100 posts ago. I returned with this and he ignored it.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

The US is a different story again - some fairly simple changes would cut firearms deaths in that country by about 75% alone without getting anywhere close to a total ban. Stuff like this is extremely rare in this country fortunately despite there being nearly 2 million legal firearms and several thousands in the hands of criminals (not including those stashed by the likes of the IRA, etc. and illegal antiques/souvenirs)

What changes would cut firearms deaths by 75% in the US? The places with the strictest gun laws or outright bans (chicago etc) have by far the highest deaths. Gun deaths in the US are well over 50% suicide, once you start removing those from the figures put out for anti gun positions, then remove any gang related figures, both of which are out of control and no gun laws will effect, the gun use in murder becomes similar to knife/vehicle and other means of death.

 

[MartinPrince]

I've just read that he had to attend an anger management course and it was after he finished that, he was given his guns back?!

Hmm, just read on the BBC that he had his gun taken because of assault in December.

Some questions are going to be asked how a 22 year old with 'assault' apparently on his card can be given back by the police his 'pump-action shotgun'.

 

[Rroff]

What changes would cut firearms deaths by 75% in the US? The places with the strictest gun laws or outright bans (chicago etc) have by far the highest deaths. Gun deaths in the US are well over 50% suicide, once you start removing those from the figures put out for anti gun positions, then remove any gang related figures, both of which are out of control and no gun laws will effect, the gun use in murder becomes similar to knife/vehicle and other means of death.

Problem with those places like Chicago you don't have to go far to be under completely different rules and there is no border, etc.

I'm talking homicides really rather than suicides when talking about reductions. In many cases there is far less accountability than other countries with high gun ownership.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Don’t waste your time he’s as CRAZY as his username implies. He made the exact same argument 100 posts ago. I returned with this and he ignored it.

Some issues with your arguement here

"Why do we have significantly less, because we have gun control laws. They work, demonstrably. I can guarantee you there is no law you can enforce that would stop these things from happening."

You contradicted yourself here! Do you have any figures to support that gun control has worked in the UK? As far as I'm aware there was never an issue with wide scale murder involving firearms before hand guns were banned and the trend for their use was falling downwards long before any ban and has not had any significant fall since the ban. The ban was knee jerk and all it achieved was removing their use from law abiding citizens.

Gun murder in the us is a culture issue and the majority of them from the figures are suicide, so a public health issue too.

Just playing devils advocate here as although I enjoy using shotguns in a local club recreationally, I would have enjoyed using hand guns too, but i can accept that there is a large element of scum in society that I do not wish to have easier access to these weapons (although they can get them easily enough via black market anyway).

 

[dave28]

Hmm, just read on the BBC that he had his gun taken because of assault in December.

Some questions are going to be asked how a 22 year old with 'assault' apparently on his card can be given back by the police his 'pump-action shotgun'.

the shotguns licence are easier to get and i assume they are less fussy because my brother had shotguns and he has a criminal record that doesnt look nice

 

[Rroff]

As far as I'm aware there was never an issue with wide scale murder involving firearms before hand guns were banned

I do wonder if that would still be true today with more lax licensing and easier ownership, there seem to be more and more people with a bleak outlook on life and/or with mental health issues.

the shotguns licence are easier to get and i assume they are less fussy because my brother had shotguns and he has a criminal record that doesnt look nice

Shotgun license ostensibly they need a good reason to deny, firearms is the other way around. A criminal record should count someone out though there are cases where there is a specific requirement i.e. job related which might see one still issued.

 

[The Running Man]

What changes would cut firearms deaths by 75% in the US? The places with the strictest gun laws or outright bans (chicago etc) have by far the highest deaths. Gun deaths in the US are well over 50% suicide, once you start removing those from the figures put out for anti gun positions, then remove any gang related figures, both of which are out of control and no gun laws will effect, the gun use in murder becomes similar to knife/vehicle and other means of death.

You would need to persuade the 13% of the population who commit 55% of the total killings to be nice to everybody. Or at least just ask them to tone it down so that the murder rate is more similar to the other 87% of the population.

If you can do that killings would be halved.

Gun culture murders aren't really a thing, per se', the numbers just look worse because of a small % of the population living 2pacs' thug4life.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

I do wonder if that would still be true today with more lax licensing and easier ownership, there seem to be more and more people with a bleak outlook on life and/or with mental health issues.

Hence my caveat at the end of that post

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Hmm, just read on the BBC that he had his gun taken because of assault in December.

Some questions are going to be asked how a 22 year old with 'assault' apparently on his card can be given back by the police his 'pump-action shotgun'.

So, we have a 3rd mass shooting in the U.K. due to failures by the firearms licensing team of the local constabulary. Will “lessons be learned” this time?