Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Entai said:
It would have to happen in every NATO country, as no single country can respond without all agreeing.

Every NATO countries government would have to agree the threat of a few billion being killed is better than a few million loosing their lives.
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NATO is a defensive alliance - why would all countries have to agree to an offensive response?
 
EvilRob said:
Is it really beyond you to understand that there are a significant number of people that would rather we take the risk of a nuclear war to prevent that from happening?
Ultimately governments execute the will of the people. If enough people desire a policy change and particularly if the the war lasts long enough for that to follow through into changes in representatives, then it could happen.
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Mr Jack said:
Another point on this: when 4, 5, maybe even 10 million Ukrainian refugees are spread across Europe that is an awful lot of people who will have refugees in their homes, or meet them through their neighbours, schools and workplaces. The strength of feeling will grow as the stories of what happened in Ukraine are spread across the continent.
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@Entai might be right about NATO, BUT as the situation changes and Putin starts to commit more and more blatant war crimes then I think at some point there will have to be a multinational coalition like the Gulf Wars where willing countries step up and start pushing back on Putin with no fly zones to start with. This done outside of the defensive NATO structure.
 
Entai said:
It would have to happen in every NATO country, as no single country can respond without all agreeing.

Every NATO countries government would have to agree the threat of a few billion being killed is better than a few million loosing their lives.
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Just more made up twaddle.
 
mid_gen said:
There's absolutely zero chance NATO will go to war with Russia, which is what you're talking about.

There'll be all sorts of brinkmanship and 'red lines' and big words....but we won't actually go to war.

Ultimately, we will let Putin flatten Ukraine....then we will end Russia as a major power through economic warfare.
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It looks to me that we very much are at war with Russia whether we like it or not. It's not reached a "kinetic" stage between NATO and Russia but on the information/sanctions/supporting their opposition front we're pretty stuck in.
 
wordy said:
@Entai might be right about NATO, BUT as the situation changes and Putin starts to commit more and more blatant war crimes then I think at some point there will have to be a multinational coalition like the Gulf Wars where willing countries step up and start pushing back on Putin with no fly zones to start with. This done outside of the defensive NATO structure.
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Would immediately nullify the defence pact isolating those nations from the others.
 
Mr Jack said:
I think you're probably right, we will let it happen.
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Correct. If we were going to intervene with force to defend Ukraine, we would have done it a month ago. We will not fire a shot, as long as Putin stays on his side of NATO borders.

HazardO said:
It looks to me that we very much are at war with Russia whether we like it or not. It's not reached a "kinetic" stage between NATO and Russia but on the information/sanctions/supporting their opposition front we're pretty stuck in.
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We are not at war with Russia.
 
EvilRob said:
Is it really beyond you to understand that there are a significant number of people that would rather we take the risk of a nuclear war to prevent that from happening?
Ultimately governments execute the will of the people. If enough people desire a policy change and particularly if the the war lasts long enough for that to follow through into changes in representatives, then it could happen.
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And that's the difference between thinking with your heart rather than your head.
 
ltron said:
It seems nuclear weapons don't keep us safe after all, they allow authoritarians to act with impunity and put us all in danger and we can do nothing to stop them.
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Well, they only work in terms of MAD, if your country has them or you are in an alliance that has them. Ukraine unfortunately neither has them, or is in a military alliance with someone that does.
 
ltron said:
It seems nuclear weapons don't keep us safe after all, they allow authoritarians to act with impunity and put us all in danger and we can do nothing to stop them.
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they have kept you safe but no they do not keep everywhere safe. Ukraine sadly are right next to a monster and they have always been in a precarious location there since the very start.
 
mid_gen said:
All this talk of us 'going in' is ******* insane.
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Wasn't so insane for Putin though was it, he knew the West would just stand by and watch, Finland and Sweden must be wetting their collective pants!

Putin knows he can use all the toys in the box against non Nato countries and we'll just sit and gawp.
 
Firestar_3x said:
And that's the difference between thinking with your heart rather than your head.
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You could argue that - but then many people do think with their hearts rather than their heads, so that doesn't make my statement any less true. However I think there's a logical argument that it is thinking with your head.
I'm not at the point where I think we should directly intervene, but I wouldn't rule it out in future.
 
If you believe Russia will use nuclear weapons if we intervened militarily then whats to stop them using them after sanctions completely devastate their economy?

Are we going to drop sanctions if Putin has a tantrum and says he'll nuke us if we don't. At what point do you call him on it.
 
Jono8 said:
Well, they only work in terms of MAD, if your country has them or you are in an alliance that has them. Ukraine unfortunately neither has them, or is in a military alliance with someone that does.
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Exactly

We would not be where we are now if Ukraine had kept their nukes.

Putin would never have invaded.
 
Puzzled said:
If you believe Russia will use nuclear weapons if we intervened militarily then whats to stop them using them after sanctions completely devastate their economy?

Are we going to drop sanctions if Putin has a tantrum and says he'll nuke us if we don't. At what point do you call him on it.
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I tend to agree with this. Either he is willing to use them, or he isn't.
If the argument is that sanctions against Russia will have more of an impact against Putin than us intervening in Ukraine and the argument is also that there would be a nuclear response to us intervening in Ukraine, then a nuclear response to sanctions appears to be a possibility.
 
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