Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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jpaul said:
re-listen to newsnight last night - (not new but) Chinese and USA experts were eloquently postulating this is really a proxy war being fought with western weapons in the unfortunate Ukraine(collateral damage) and really part of a worldwided dictatorship versus liberal-democracy battle, with the consequence of enabling the spread of the former if the West don't provide further help ie. stakes are higher.

Despite any negotiation Ukraine may have, I don't see how they speak on wests behalf about any subsequent relaxation of sanctions, which I think could justifiably be used to help in infrastructure reparation costs, or for that matter refugee funding.
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I missed Newsnight, I was relaxing with First Dates instead! But I’ll try and get time to watch it, but I don’t think you’re wrong. War doesn’t have to be just boots on the ground and it’s undeniable that there’s economic warfare going on here. I’m not sure it’s as cut and dry as liberal western democracy vs worldwide dictators especially as we are cosying up to Iran/Saudi/Venezuela and certainly don’t seem to be doing anything to stop the rise of China. I think this could be seen as a proxy war with liberal democracies and Putin with the Ukrainians and the Russian civilians as those who lose out.

It’s an interesting question about who determines when sanctions are removed. I dare say Ukraine will have a say on it, but if the west wish to remove them without the agreement of Ukraine then I can see that happening. Ultimately I think Russia will blink first.


Freefaller said:
Cool that's all I wanted to know. If there was more to it than that. That's it. No need to have little jibes about conspiracy theorist, as I said, it was a genuine "thinking out loud" question. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply.
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You sounded a bit like one but did ask your question in a genuine manner so I simply replied in a way that would leave no doubt your question was absurd. No need to be so sensitive. All friends here!
 
*Head of Ukraine’s Gas Transit Operator Says He Sees No Problem with Gas System
*Ukraine President’s Deputy Chief of Staff: Talks with Russia Are Ongoing
*Ukraine President’s Deputy Chief of Staff: Talks with Russia Are “Very Difficult”
*Ukraine President’s Deputy Chief of Staff: Ukraine Will Not Give Up EU Membership Bid to Compromise with Russia
https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1504783859682062374
 
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Fair dos - not sensitive (I think we've met no? You know I'm not!) just wanted to air some thoughts - no doubts in my mind now! I'm firmly anti Putin, just wanted to be absolutely sure there's no nefarious spin somewhere, which I havent been able to find. Thanks @Ahleckz :)
 
Freefaller said:
Cool that's all I wanted to know. If there was more to it than that. That's it. No need to have little jibes about conspiracy theorist, as I said, it was a genuine "thinking out loud" question. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply.
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End of the day the completely deranged lies Russia is saying in/to the UN tells everything you need to know - but it isn't entirely black and white - see my post https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/35490377
 
Freefaller said:
Fair dos - not sensitive (I think we've met no? You know I'm not!) just wanted to air some thoughts - no doubts in my mind now! I'm firmly anti Putin, just wanted to be absolutely sure there's no nefarious spin somewhere, which I havent been able to find. Thanks @Ahleckz :)
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I find reading your posts in my head with a French accent helps me understand your intonation :-) (not sure if you are French at all of course!)
 
Custor said:
But the Ukraine is.
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No, Ukraine is not big enough to play with the big boys. That's why she took care not to start any grief with Russia. This war has been forced on her, she never wanted it in the first place.

Mr Jack said:
I'm unconvinced. India's GDP is getting on for twice that of Russia's and growing. It has a larger military budget, and growing. It has a vastly larger population. It has better relationships with much of the world, and is better placed for trade. And while India is neither a model democracy nor free from corruption, it is much better governed than Russia in almost every way.

If Russia thinks it can push India around it will find itself much mistaken.
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India is a glass cannon. She has a population she can't even manage (let alone feed and house properly), her poverty rate is a whopping 68.8%, 732 million Indians have no access to a toilet, while millions who do have toilets, don't even bother to use them, and she still relies on de facto slave labour for her primary and secondary industries (that's without even mentioning her rampant corruption and shocking rate of violence against women).

I haven't seen anything that would give me confidence in the strength and competence of her war machine. If she ever entered a full scale conflict, I suspect we'd see something akin to Russia's mess in Ukraine.

India can't even survive without foreign aid from the West. She's tough enough to take on Pakistan, and would probably win because Pakistan is even more dysfunctional than she is. But against Russia, China, or the US, I wouldn't give much for her chances.

India is an underdeveloped country that foreign corporations exploit for cheap labour. That's her primary function in the world at present, and it's not going to change any time soon just because she has a few nukes in the shed.
 
*Biden Will Urge Xi to Use Influence on Putin to End War: U.S.
*U.S. Collecting Evidence on Russia War Crimes: U.S.’ Sherman
*U.S. Hopes Xi Chooses ‘Right Side of History’: U.S.’s Sherman
https://twitter.com/C_Barraud/status/1504792713044144130
https://twitter.com/zerohedge/status/1504792892262518786

*Italy’s PM Draghi: Joint Gas Purchases and Storage in the Interest of the Entire EU.
*Italy’s PM Draghi: The EU Commission Should Set a Limit on Gas Prices.
*Italy’s PM Draghi: Italy, Spain, Greece, and Portugal Aim to Press the EU to Implement More Incisive, Unified Energy Policies.
*Italy’s PM Draghi Calls for Common EU Energy Storage and Purchase Policy.
*Spain’s PM Sanchez: Spain, Portugal Can Play Role in Diversification of Energy Sources and Interconnections
*Portugal's PM Costa: The EU Has to Work for Effective Measures on Energy Prices Curbs to Be Taken at Next Council
*Portugal’s PM Costa: Necessary to Control Gas Prices and Prevent Electricity Prices to Be Affected by Explosion of Gas Prices
 
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Sankari said:
India can't even survive without foreign aid from the West. She's tough enough to take on Pakistan, and would probably win because Pakistan is even more dysfunctional than she is. But against Russia, China, or the US, I wouldn't give much for her chances.

India is an underdeveloped country that foreign corporations exploit for cheap labour. That's her primary function in the world at present, and it's not going to change any time soon just because she has a few nukes in the shed.
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What you're saying is largely correct, but we're not talking about India vs. the US or vs. China here, we're talking about vs. Russia. As many problems as India has it's still in a much better position than Russia. Russia's economy, such as it is, is almost entirely based on extraction - mostly of fossil fuels - and almost all of that wealth is flowing to a handful of kleptocrats. Worse, those kleptocrats actively work to weaken and undermine the more productive parts of the economy lest they become a threat. India may suffer from corruption, it may have huge wealth inequality, etc. but its leaders are trying to fix these problems and its populous has influence over their leaders.

Even before Putin's latest idiocy, India had a far greater, stronger role in the future than Russia, after Ukraine that difference is only magnified.
 
muon said:
What happened to the Putin apologists saying the Russian army isn't targetting civilians. Apparently they are always bombing legitimate military targets.

Haven't seen them post in a while.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60774819

Maybe there are biolabs in all these locations.
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was anyone apologising ?
people like me were just pointing out even America bombed civilian air raid shelters, hospitals etc in wars too.

but with Russia ofcourse it's intended targets, where as America was merely accidents, accidents don't happen when it's an enemy.
I'm still yet to see any rescue operation footage from the bombed theatre
This is the place right? how come there's no ambulances or anything there? but now places are saying there's rescue operations under way?

Why don't they show images of the rescue like they did with the hospital that seemed to contain 1 woman?

it's incredibly hard to know what's absolute propaganda and what's actually true.

The first casualty of war is always the truth.

something makes me think if hundreds or thousands of people were really trapped there would be footage of the rescue by now, it's been about 4 days?

We get articles and headlines based on what's essentially hearsay and everyone just accepts it's the truth.

it seems like an atrocity they should be showing off to the world to pressure russia into a ceasefire or whatever, but instead it's just silence and no one bothers to question it.
 
Mr Jack said:
What you're saying is largely correct, but we're not talking about India vs. the US or vs. China here, we're talking about vs. Russia. As many problems as India has it's still in a much better position than Russia. Russia's economy, such as it is, is almost entirely based on extraction - mostly of fossil fuels - and almost all of that wealth is flowing to a handful of kleptocrats. Worse, those kleptocrats actively work to weaken and undermine the more productive parts of the economy lest they become a threat. India may suffer from corruption, it may have huge wealth inequality, etc. but its leaders are trying to fix these problems and its populous has influence over their leaders.

Even before Putin's latest idiocy, India had a far greater, stronger role in the future than Russia, after Ukraine that difference is only magnified.
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I think Russia's economy—despite being hopelessly corrupt—is still more functional and robust than India's.

Yes Russia has her oligarchs, but India is little better: the top 10% of India's population owns 65% of the total wealth (in Russia it's 87%).

India's attempts at modernisation can never fully succeed, because she has intractable problems at a socio-cultural level (e.g. the caste system) that serve as an impenetrable barrier to progress. So she'll continue to be a half-finished nation, limping through the 21st century with the shackles of the 13th century around one leg.

Furthermore, India (unlike Russia) is heavily reliant on Chinese imports. If India ever tried to fight Russia, China could turn off that tap and cripple her economy.
 
Rroff said:
End of the day the completely deranged lies Russia is saying in/to the UN tells everything you need to know - but it isn't entirely black and white - see my post https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/35490377
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Ah thanks Rroff, interesting, but still very squarely Putin's the aggressor there, but I always assume there's more to an event than what we're told (I generally don't trust the press), but as you proposed in your post, meddling has probably catalysed that madman to doing what he's doing now.

I do wonder when the Russian people all find out how many of them will stand in solidarity and those that won't... I fear the Kremlin aren't very pragmatic or open minded to challenges.

CapitalOne said:
I find reading your posts in my head with a French accent helps me understand your intonation :) (not sure if you are French at all of course!)
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I am French - but I have apparently a "posh" English accent :o However, my mannerisms are very continental rather than British :)
 
arknor said:
was anyone apologising ?
people like me were just pointing out even America bombed civilian air raid shelters, hospitals etc in wars too.

but with Russia ofcourse it's intended targets, where as America was merely accidents, accidents don't happen when it's an enemy.
I'm still yet to see any rescue operation footage from the bombed theatre
This is the place right? how come there's no ambulances or anything there? but now places are saying there's rescue operations under way?

Why don't they show images of the rescue like they did with the hospital that seemed to contain 1 woman?

it's incredibly hard to know what's absolute propaganda and what's actually true.

The first casualty of war is always the truth.

something makes me think if hundreds or thousands of people were really trapped there would be footage of the rescue by now, it's been about 4 days?

We get articles and headlines based on what's essentially hearsay and everyone just accepts it's the truth.

it seems like an atrocity they should be showing off to the world to pressure russia into a ceasefire or whatever, but instead it's just silence and no one bothers to question it.
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Doing your utmost best to play it down. America did it too! Where, I can't see any rescue operations from a thousand miles away? First casualty of war is the truth! Propaganda!
 
muon said:
Doing your utmost best to play it down. America did it too! Where, I can't see any rescue operations from a thousand miles away? First casualty of war is the truth! Propaganda!
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I'm not playing anything down I'm wondering why there's no footage of the rescue, no comments from survivors etc.

every other bit of the war has been on social media.... I'm just saying it's strange no one in mariupol seems to have a phone.
I'm sure there is every time a russian aircraft gets shot down over heard or whenever a tank gets blown up though.

it's on social media it must be true
 
Sankari said:
No, Ukraine is not big enough to play with the big boys. That's why she took care not to start any grief with Russia. This war has been forced on her, she never wanted it in the first place.

India is a glass cannon. She has a population she can't even manage (let alone feed and house properly), her poverty rate is a whopping 68.8%, 732 million Indians have no access to a toilet, while millions who do have toilets, don't even bother to use them, and she still relies on de facto slave labour for her primary and secondary industries (that's without even mentioning her rampant corruption and shocking rate of violence against women).

I haven't seen anything that would give me confidence in the strength and competence of her war machine. If she ever entered a full scale conflict, I suspect we'd see something akin to Russia's mess in Ukraine.

India can't even survive without foreign aid from the West. She's tough enough to take on Pakistan, and would probably win because Pakistan is even more dysfunctional than she is. But against Russia, China, or the US, I wouldn't give much for her chances.

India is an underdeveloped country that foreign corporations exploit for cheap labour. That's her primary function in the world at present, and it's not going to change any time soon just because she has a few nukes in the shed.
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i’d agree.

Eu membership would be three edged - the FRA+GER strength in the union may infuriate the Ukrainian given they would erode sovereignty. Something that nationalists/brexiteers have been quick to point out.
I think Ukraine could negotiate a stronger position in the EU due to it’s natural resources.
 
arknor said:
was anyone apologising ?
people like me were just pointing out even America bombed civilian air raid shelters, hospitals etc in wars too.
Click to expand...

That's just irrelevant whataboutism.

'But America did it too!' So what? That still doesn't justify Russia doing it.

I'm still yet to see any rescue operation footage from the bombed theatre
This is the place right? how come there's no ambulances or anything there? but now places are saying there's rescue operations under way?

Why don't they show images of the rescue like they did with the hospital that seemed to contain 1 woman?
Click to expand...

News footage out of Mariupol is extremely limited right now, authorities are not allowing many images out. But just because you didn't see a rescue operation in a 5 second video clip, doesn't mean it's not happening.


it seems like an atrocity they should be showing off to the world to pressure russia into a ceasefire or whatever, but instead it's just silence and no one bothers to question it.
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You literally posted footage of the theatre smashed and burning.
 
Sankari said:
No, Ukraine is not big enough to play with the big boys. That's why she took care not to start any grief with Russia. This war has been forced on her, she never wanted it in the first place.



India is a glass cannon. She has a population she can't even manage (let alone feed and house properly), her poverty rate is a whopping 68.8%, 732 million Indians have no access to a toilet, while millions who do have toilets, don't even bother to use them, and she still relies on de facto slave labour for her primary and secondary industries (that's without even mentioning her rampant corruption and shocking rate of violence against women).

I haven't seen anything that would give me confidence in the strength and competence of her war machine. If she ever entered a full scale conflict, I suspect we'd see something akin to Russia's mess in Ukraine.

India can't even survive without foreign aid from the West. She's tough enough to take on Pakistan, and would probably win because Pakistan is even more dysfunctional than she is. But against Russia, China, or the US, I wouldn't give much for her chances.

India is an underdeveloped country that foreign corporations exploit for cheap labour. That's her primary function in the world at present, and it's not going to change any time soon just because she has a few nukes in the shed.
Click to expand...

I think you are right, what this war has highlighted is that headline numbers and figures in relation to a state's military mean nothing if the force isn't trained and equipped properly, adequately supplied with good logistics, and most importantly, not corrupt from the top down.

We have been fooled for decades, since the cold war, into thinking that Russia's military was top-tier and could go toe-to-toe with many western nations in a conventional conflict. This trope that has been in so much of our mass consumption media over the years (Red Dawn, Top Gun, World in Conflict, pretty much any modern FPS like COD or BF) has been shown to be astoundingly inaccurate.

The Russians have been masters at bigging-up their forces. For example, conventional wisdom and pub-lore had us believing that Russian Spetznaz are god-like, axe-throwing, back-flipping ice-headbutting SF, but it seems that even the Russian Tier-1 units are no better than a conventional grunt from a western force.

What an embarrassment for the Russians. This debacle really has made Russia look impotent.

I guess the Indians would just get even more steam-rolled in a proper conflict. They have no real recent experience. Without using skills, they atrophy and you lose them. If nothing else, the 20 years of war in the middle east that the US, UK, France (Africa) etc. have waged has allowed them to fine-tune their skills and tactics to the point that they could probably spank any force pretty quickly. Plus they all train and work together. The US has bases all over the world and insane logistical capabilities. Russia couldn't even adequately supply their forces in a neighbouring country, it will be the same for most other countries who just don't have the reach or logistical experience of the US.

I think experience has a lot to do with military success, and the west has no shortage of that at the moment.
 
Sankari said:
You literally posted footage of the theatre smashed and burning.
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yea with no rescue footage... seems more like an empty building got hit or azov blew it up to try and force a ceasefire before they lose mariupol.
but I get nazi people would never lie.

News footage out of Mariupol is extremely limited right now, authorities are not allowing many images out
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do they control the internet? are people smuggling videos out by mail

want some whataboutism? what about fake videos from other wars
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/24/middleeast/mannequin-challenge-white-helmets-syria/index.html
 
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