Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Amnesia said:
Only an idiot refuses to see both sides of an argument, the pope isn't an idiot.
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While there was an attempt to balance his message there is a very fine line when it comes to provoked - Ukraine (or even the West) might not be innocent but there is a long way from that to something which justifies the use of force in the way Russia has, especially without exhausting trying to resolve issues through the likes of the UN first (as useless as the UN is). He might have had a point if Russia hadn't increasingly used complete lies to the UN and so on to justify their actions.

Then you have him citing a "very wise man" as claiming NATO is barking at the gates of Russia... when for instance Russia has regularly been probing other countries airspace with nuclear capable strategic bombers for years, while the West very rarely flies anything other than ISR missions anywhere near Russia and only upped the ante with some B-1 flights which were a bit more provocative in 2021 in response to Russian actions raising tensions.
 
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Amnesia said:
Only an idiot refuses to see both sides of an argument, the pope isn't an idiot.
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There's seeing both sides of an argument and then there is disingenuous equivocation.

For instance even if Russia feels 'provoked' by NATO, it's actions have only served to ensure NATO's relevance and continued growth. Their argument isn't strengthened, it is defeated.
 
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Amnesia said:
Only an idiot refuses to see both sides of an argument, the pope isn't an idiot.
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Oh yes he is.

So Hitler thought he had a point about gassing all the Jews etc, should we have sat down and listened to his reasoning and thought about whether he was right or wrong?

Nope.
He was very clearly wrong.
 
StriderX said:
There's seeing both sides of an argument and then there is disingenuous equivocation.

For instance even if Russia feels 'provoked' by NATO, it's actions have only served to ensure NATO's relevance and continued growth. Their argument isn't strengthened, it is defeated.
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Rroff said:
While there was an attempt to balance his message there is a very fine line when it comes to provoked - Ukraine (or even the West) might not be innocent but there is a long way from that to something which justifies the use of force in the way Russia has, especially without exhausting trying to resolve issues through the likes of the UN first (as useless as the UN is). He might have had a point if Russia hadn't increasingly used complete lies to the UN and so on to justify their actions.

Then you have him citing a "very wise man" as claiming NATO is barking at the gates of Russia... when for instance Russia has regularly been probing other countries airspace with nuclear capable strategic bombers for years, while the West very rarely flies anything other than ISR missions anywhere near Russia and only upped the ante with some B-1 flights which were a bit more provocative in 2021 in response to Russian actions raising tensions.
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“What we are seeing is the brutality and ferocity with which this war is being carried out by the troops, generally mercenaries, used by the Russians.… But the danger is that we only see this, which is monstrous, and we do not see the whole drama unfolding behind this war, which was perhaps somehow either provoked or not prevented,” he was quoted saying.
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He has made reference to the evil brutality in which the Russians have operated but to not aknowledge that all sides did not do their best to prevent this would have been disingenuous. I respect that he has aknowledged this too.
 
Amnesia said:
He has made reference to the evil brutality in which the Russians have operated but to not aknowledge that all sides did not do their best to prevent this would have been disingenuous. I respect that he has aknowledged this too.
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Prevent russia invading ukraine a second time?

How much vodka and cancer diagnoses do you need to believe ukraine was asking for it.
 
alchal said:
Oh yes he is.

So Hitler thought he had a point about gassing all the Jews etc, should we have sat down and listened to his reasoning and thought about whether he was right or wrong?

Nope.
He was very clearly wrong.
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How are you comparing what the pope said to anyone agreeing with Jews getting gassed.
 
Lol the pope actually said that westerners are in the wrong because we should know that Russia is a colonialist country and we should stay far away from them or get burnt


This is no doubt the same pope who would have told the world to stay away from Britain when Britain invaded half the world because "they are a colonial country".


This is a pope who would continue to beg for forgiveness right until Putin is at the Vaticans door asking if anyone is home and then he tell the world it's ok, because Russia is a colonial country don't be afraid of Russian rule
 
Amnesia said:
How are you comparing what the pope said to anyone agreeing with Jews getting gassed.
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Rroff said:
At a guess based on the likely numbers killed per day throughout the conflict it is probably around 18K KIA on the Ukraine side and 28K KIA on the Russian side. Though there have been some hard fought losses Ukraine has mostly, Mariupol aside, managed to avoid forces being encircled and destroyed mostly concentrating on containment until they have the forces to both attack and hold areas they successfully push Russia out of, while Russia has multiple times just sent in waves of infantry and when they go down, sent in another lot.
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Russian losses have actually slowed down in the last few weeks now that has transitioned to a slow street to street grind and open field trench warefare. Much of Russias losses occurred in the first few weeks and it was because they were bunching up columns of hundreds of vehicles through narrow streets in Northern Ukraine and Ukranians artillery literally just chewed them up with no where to run causing many thousands of deaths forbthe Russians - the Russians also made the mistake of dropping thousands of paratroopers hundreds of kilometres behind enemy lines with no backup and they were naturally slaughtered
 
Grim5 said:
Russian losses have actually slowed down in the last few weeks now that has transitioned to a slow street to street grind and open field trench warefare. Much of Russias losses occurred in the first few weeks and it was because they were bunching up columns of hundreds of vehicles through narrow streets in Northern Ukraine and Ukranians artillery literally just chewed them up with no where to run causing many thousands of deaths forbthe Russians - the Russians also made the mistake of dropping thousands of paratroopers hundreds of kilometres behind enemy lines with no backup and they were naturally slaughtered
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While it has slowed down - there have been some big losses in more recent action as well - including the attempted river crossings and instances where multiple Russian brigades were losing as many as 500 KIA/wounded in as little as 72 hours of fighting - with the Ukrainian soldiers reporting the Russians would just send a wave of 100 men and when they went down, send another 100 after them to the exact same fate.
 
Amnesia said:
So the Ukrainians are completely innocent and all sides(including the West) did everything in their power to avert this war?
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You are changing the story. Like you said to me, go back and read my comments. I never suggested Ukrainian or the west is 100% innocent. Nice try though. /Rolleyes

Why should we do "everything" to avoid war exactly? Why should we pander to a bully? Your logic is flawed. Didn't you get the memo? Russians see strength as a reason to not invade places, not "please don't hurt me.. here have some resources".
 
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