Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Elson should stick to what he knows best, being an engineer. He should also learn that nobody can tell Ukranians what to do, they have the right to self determination.
 
ChrisLX200 said:
Sucks to be them, eh? There are a few brave Russian people who are openly protesting against the Putin regime, if there were more maybe he wouldn't be in power right now. The people that are running away are only thinking about saving their own skins and frankly I have little sympathy for them.
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Sorry, but how would protesting against the Putin regime help them in this situation? Male peaceful protesters against the war have been arrested, beaten up and then served with conscription papers at the Police station and sent directly to an Army barracks. Going to a peaceful protest against the war is a shortcut to being in uniform and on the frontline in Ukraine!

You seem to be rather naive about the political reality in Russia. Even huge peaceful protests will never remove the Putin regime. He has effectively resurrected the KGB and is using it to clamp down on all political dissent in the country. He controls 100% of the electronic media and newspapers in Russia. The bravery of peaceful protesters there is impressive, but they are just getting a one way ticket to a good kicking and a prison cell. Democracy in Russia is a sick joke. He has spent the last 20 years dismantling Russia's democratic system and eliminating all the sensible popular opposition politicians. Only a military coup d'etat or an armed insurrection by a large proportion of the population will unseat Putin and his lieutenants now.

How do you know that 'the people that are running away are only thinking about saving their own skins'? The people being conscripted are (supposed to be) reservists so the majority of them have already done at least a year of compulsory military service and the older ones will have done 2 years in the Army/Air Force or 3 years in the Navy. To get through national service in Russia you have to be tough. They still use the Dedovshchina system there and life in the Army for national servicemen is a cross between life in a prison and a hard labour camp. Therefore, they are hardly going to be cowards or wimps.

There are many Russian draftees with family/friends/colleagues who live in Ukraine proper. They speak to/correspond with them and know that the Kremlin is lying about Nazis/drug addicts/satanists running Ukraine. They don't want to injure or kill innocent Ukrainians themselves so what are they supposed to do? Leaving is all they can do unless they want to either go to prison or become an outlaw living on the margins of society.
 
Colonel_Klinck said:
The idea that you can maybe take a few months to fully plan out a situation when refugees are fleeing a war zone is ridiculous. Or is this just another case of not our problem, let everyone else deal with it even though their countries and citizens are also likely experiencing hardships? No need to answer I think we already know.
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The very first countries they got to as they fled had no time to prepare, but the UK absolutely had time to come-up with a well thought-out and budgeted plan, yet because we rushed out an unthought-out "plan" now both refugees and British people are now suffering who didn't have to.

Also, just to be crystal clear - nowhere have I said "it's not our problem", so I dislike your insinuation as much I dislike you mostly as I find you to be far more bigoted than almost everyone else on this site and yet you never realise this, and very probably never will, ah well.
 
Maple Leaf said:
Sorry, but how would protesting against the Putin regime help them in this situation? Male peaceful protesters against the war have been arrested, beaten up and then served with conscription papers at the Police station and sent directly to an Army barracks. Going to a peaceful protest against the war is a shortcut to being in uniform and on the frontline in Ukraine!

You seem to be rather naive about the political reality in Russia. Even huge peaceful protests will never remove the Putin regime. He has effectively resurrected the KGB and is using it to clamp down on all political dissent in the country. He controls 100% of the electronic media and newspapers in Russia. The bravery of peaceful protesters there is impressive, but they are just getting a one way ticket to a good kicking and a prison cell. Democracy in Russia is a sick joke. He has spent the last 20 years dismantling Russia's democratic system and eliminating all the sensible popular opposition politicians. Only a military coup d'etat or an armed insurrection by a large proportion of the population will unseat Putin and his lieutenants now.

How do you know that 'the people that are running away are only thinking about saving their own skins'? The people being conscripted are (supposed to be) reservists so the majority of them have already done at least a year of compulsory military service and the older ones will have done 2 years in the Army/Air Force or 3 years in the Navy. To get through national service in Russia you have to be tough. They still use the Dedovshchina system there and life in the Army for national servicemen is a cross between life in a prison and a hard labour camp. Therefore, they are hardly going to be cowards or wimps.

There are many Russian draftees with family/friends/colleagues who live in Ukraine proper. They speak to/correspond with them and know that the Kremlin is lying about Nazis/drug addicts/satanists running Ukraine. They don't want to injure or kill innocent Ukrainians themselves so what are they supposed to do? Leaving is all they can do unless they want to either go to prison or become an outlaw living on the margins of society.
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Your highlighted sentence is the key - change can only come from within Russia itself, and that can't happen if everyone who disagrees with Putin's regime runs away just waiting until it's all over and they can go back home. Yes, it's going to be terrible price to pay for Russians to get rid of him but right now Ukrainians are paying that price to defeat him on the battlefield. You think there are no Ukrainian losses? Think again.
 
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*U.S. TO SOON ANNOUNCE IT WILL SEND 4 MORE HIMARS LAUNCHERS IN NEW $625 MILLION ARMS PACKAGE FOR UKRAINE - OFFICIALS
 
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What to do if you've just annexed a load of territory you don't own + just lost another major settlement... pretend you've, ackchually, annexed a bit less after "consulting" with the local population:


*seven said:
New poll lol

*White House's Kirby: Not Clear Putin Will Get 300,000 Reservists
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In theory, I'd have been sympathetic with the self-determination/referendum argument in 2014 for Crimea, given it was kind of a gift during the Soviet Union times and is largely Russian though a referendum would be incredibly dodgy now after over 500k Russians have moved there since the (original) invasion and plenty of Ukrainians have left.

Not to mention it has previously been assigned to Ukraine in the past IIRC (at the start of the 20th century and there is a more "native" population, the Crimean Tatars who've been historically oppressed there.
 
ICDP said:
Your assessment relies on the following to be true
  1. These people were protesting the war before the consrciption was expanded.
  2. These people were unhappy with their life in Russia prior to the expanded consricption.
I am not saying none of them fall in to this category, but the timing would imply the significant majority are simply leaving, not because they are protesting the war, or the Russian political system, but purely because they don't want to go to war. Prior to now they were happy in blissful ignorance and letting others do the dying and had no issues with what "mother Russia" was doing.
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No, my assessment does not rely on those two spurious conditions.

Obviously, there are going to be some selfish people among them who approve of the regime/war but don't want to fight in Ukraine themselves. But you can be against a war/regime without actively going out to make a public protest against it. In Russia making a peaceful protest against the war/regime is not without serious personal cost; it will get you a beating, a criminal record, a fine/prison time and you will probably get fired from your job. The social stigma/state reprisals will also negatively affect your family too.

There are many Russian draftees with family/friends/colleagues who live in Ukraine proper. They speak to/correspond with them and know that the Kremlin is lying about Nazis/drug addicts/satanists running Ukraine. Hence, they don't want to injure or kill innocent Ukrainians themselves or destroy their country, so what are they supposed to do? Leaving is all they can do unless they want to either go to prison or become an outlaw living on the margins of society.

I suppose you would tell them to go to war with the Russian government and firebomb draft offices, kill policemen/FSB agents/politicians etc. Well, that's all very well if you are a young single man with a hero complex/death wish, but it's not very helpful advice for a middle-aged married man with young kids or dependent sick elderly parents.
 
Maple Leaf said:
I strongly disagree with your analysis. If you are a Russian man who is being conscripted to be sent to fight in an offensive war against a peaceful neighbouring country (Ukraine), which you don't agree with, then you are in a very vulnerable position where you are at high risk of being persecuted. If you refuse to submit to conscription and go on the run you will be arrested, beaten up and imprisoned. If you go along with it, but try to creatively find ways to avoid going to the battlefield (conscientious objector etc) you are also likely to get arrested, beaten up and imprisoned. If you try to desert then you will be arrested, beaten up and imprisoned (or shot if it happens on the battlefield). If you refuse to follow orders to torture, rape, kill Ukrainian civilians/PoWs then you will be arrested, beaten up and imprisoned/shot. If you surrender to Ukrainian forces then when the Russians get you back you will be arrested, beaten up and imprisoned.
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That's a bit exaggerated, Russian POWs aren't necessarily going to be beaten up when they return for example. There is the risk of mistreatment for "refusers" etc.. though.

I'm not sure many countries would apply your standards though, Germany perhaps, AFAIK places like Finland would require a higher standard than just "was a former conscript/reservist and required to be mobilised by his country as per his reserve commitments", they'd want to see evidence of a specific danger, public expression of anti-regime sympathies or anti-war sympathies etc.. simply being mobilised by the military isn't generally enough in itself for an asylum claim.
 
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ChrisLX200 said:
Your highlighted sentence is the key - change can only come from within Russia itself, and that can't happen if everyone who disagrees with Putin's regime runs away just waiting until it's all over and they can go back home. Yes, it's going to be terrible price to pay for Russians to get rid of him but right now Ukrainians are paying that price to defeat him on the battlefield. You think there are no Ukrainian losses? Think again.
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Of course, there are Ukrainian losses! Where did I imply there were not? Talk about a non sequitur.

Yes, it would be better for the chances of getting rid of Putin, if unwilling draftees hostile to the regime/war hid out in Russia and got ready to become part of a general uprising against the government, but in the meantime they would be in considerable danger.

I suppose you would advise them to go to war with the Russian government and firebomb draft offices, kill policemen/FSB agents/politicians etc. Well, that's all very well if you are a young single man with a hero complex/death wish, but it's not very helpful advice for a middle-aged married man with young kids or dependent sick elderly parents.

The most likely way Putin will get deposed is by one of his lieutenants murdering him and taking over (he could be even worse than Putin). The next most likely way is by a military coup d'etat, which would probably happen shortly after Putin loses in Ukraine and is humiliated. Rather like what happened to the last Tsar. :D
 
There were very many on social media forums calling for Boris' head, but who are now aghast at his replacement and her agenda. Those casually wanting Putin's head may want to reflect on how such a wish might pan out should a regime change ensue.
 
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