Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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GreatAuk said:
I say that because of the real risks to their person if they stay in Russia - they will either be arrested and sent to a brutal prison or sent to a deadly and unjust war if they stay in the country. I don't see how that is 'right' at an individual level. It's hard to know what individuals thought about the war (and what they knew), but either way they are allowed to change their minds, and victims don't have to be perfect to be vulnerable...

There are lots of real practical and political reasons I can think of that letting them in might be a bad idea, but on an individual level I really disagree tbh.
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I don't think anyone is saying they are not at risk, of course they are. The point is that the circumstances could not be more different between those Ukrainians forced to flee a murderous invading army and Russians leaving so they don't get consripted.
 
Freddie1980 said:
F'em bloody cowards. Just remember their running away from conscription for the country they live in there and not because their backwards country is raping and killing it's neighbours.

Why is women in Iran and Dagastan will stand up to the authorities yet young, fit, Russian men will keep their mouths shut and runaway the moment politics suddenly becomes interested in them?
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Seem like quite different scenarios with a different mix of public opinion and effectiveness of state repression to me...

Easy to say they're cowards for not risking their lives fighting the authorities or going to prison when it's not you having to actually do it. I'm certainly glad I don't live there.

Maybe some people think they would be a brave independent soul fighting against the system and seeing through all the propaganda if they lived in Russia, and sure a minority might be... But it will be a small minority.
 
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Iraklis F.C. said:
since this isnt a war, on paper / technically, when it ends would Ukraine be eligible to demand war reparations from the Russians?
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Their eligible for sure but Russia will have to agree to it which seems unlikely with this bunch of gangsters.

In an ideal scenario Russia gets pushed out of Ukraine and Putin gets pushed out of a window and is replaced by a moderate who is able to isolate Putin's cronies. A peace deal is reached where Russia returns all the Ukrainians they've kidnapped and will pay reparations for the next 20 years so Ukraine can rebuild. In exchange all POWs are returned bar a few hundred who are tried for war crimes and sanctions are slowly lifted.

The other way is the west has basically kidnapped hundreds of billions of $ in bank reserves which could be given to Ukraine I guess.
 
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For a country that claims its enemy is the entire west, it doesn't to be defending very hard -intelligence indicates that from Latvia all the way up the NATO border to the top of Finland is currently guarded by less than 5000 soldiers. If any of those countries wanted to enter Russia they'd be able to cross the border right now without any defence
 
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Hagar said:
The Baltic states have a particular problem with their Russian minorities. They have been prone to supporting Russia and destabilising the countries politics. That is why Russian war memorials and statues have been taken down. I do not blame them not wanting large numbers of Russian men as so called refugees within their borders.
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Fine. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all in the EU, so if they did let in Russians who definitely refused to fight in Ukraine it should be possible for the EU to spread those people across western and southern Europe. That way there will be no areas with large numbers of Russians close to the Russian border which might be a tempting target for future Russian governments to expand into. Yes, it would be politically difficult, but if the Russians lose tens of thousands of their most intelligent countrymen then that should damage their economy nicely for many years to come.

dowie said:
It's separate though, you're conflating the war being a bad thing (which I think we all agree on) with automatically granting asylum to draft dodgers. We know the war is a bad thing, lots of wars are bad, a mobilised or conscripted soldier doesn't just get to claim asylum on that basis.
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He should do if he refuses to fight in a war because it is genocide and based upon a pack of cynical lies. There are international legal precedents, for example the Canadians gave refuge to American men conscripted to fight in the Vietnam War. Sweden also gave political asylum to US draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. Or is it just a case of "my country right or wrong" with you?

Freddie1980 said:
Just remember their running away from conscription for the country they live in there and not because their backwards country is raping and killing it's neighbours.
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That's just your opinion though. You don't know what proportion of them are opposed to the war and secretly think Putin is a short-arse ****. In an authoritarian dump like Russia all you can do is vote with your feet and leave.

Caracus2k said:
Remember a lot of these men would have been amongst those cheering for their country earlier in the invasion when the consensus was that Russsia would steamroll Ukraine. A lot of them are not conscientious objectors but hypocritical cowards who supported the naked aggression of their country right up until their backsides were on the line.
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What proportion were cheering for their country and are hypocritical cowards then? Did you poll them all before mobilisation was announced? You're just dehumanising them because they're Russians. Do you think foreigners think most Brits approve of the Opium Wars, the Jallianwala Bagh massacre or the British Empire's treatment of American Indians/Australian Aborigines because Britain once carried those outrages out?

GreatAuk said:
Easy to say they're cowards for not risking their lives fighting the authorities or going to prison when it's not you having to actually do it. I'm certainly glad I don't live there.

Maybe some people think they would be a brave independent soul fighting against the system and seeing through all the propaganda if they lived in Russia, and sure a minority might be... But it will be a small minority.
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I quite agree. According to most of the enlightened posters on here a Russian in this position should either make a futile protest against the war and spend 15 years being beaten up and raped in a Russian prison or hard labour camp OR somehow turn himself into Rambo and start a personal war against the Russian state with improvised weapons and explosives. Unfortunately, life is not like a Die Hard movie! :rolleyes:
 
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Maple Leaf said:
What proportion were cheering for their country and are hypocritical cowards then? Did you poll them all before mobilisation was announced? You're just dehumanising them because they're Russians. Do you think foreigners think most Brits approve of the Opium Wars, the Jallianwala Bagh massacre or the British Empire's treatment of American Indians/Australian Aborigines because Britain once carried those outrages out?
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Your apparenlty unable or unwilling to construct a logical argument so have resorted some bizarre whataboutery about the UK's colonial past when Russia was itself an aggressive expansionistic empire in the same time frame.

Yes by today's (hopefully better) standards the actions of many countries, including historical Russia and the historical UK would be as egregious if not more so than the Russians contemporary warmongering.


So ignoring your attempt to defect from there here and now the situation is that we (most European countries and the USA) are in a proxy war with Russia.


Putin has enjoyed a considerable degree of domestic support that has only wavered recently with his disastrous invasion of Ukraine. No doubt there is a significant population within Russia that are both opposed to Putin and suppressed by his goverment.

However it is for the Russians to sort out their political situation and part of the whole reason this war started in the 1st place was the 'Russification' of non Russian states which involved moving people who were culturally and linguistically Russian into non Russiam countries.


The west needs to get wise and stop allowing the current rather unregulated flow of military aged men into our countries, especially where many of them will be hostile to out Liberal values.


Draft dodging should not be a reason in and of itself to seek asylum and much as I agree with the Ukrainians turning back fighting age males trying to flee the country it is correct that Russian deserters should get exactly the same treatment and be turned back to their countries commissars.

It may be theorised that taking in sufficient male refuges will deprive the Russian army of enough conscripts to negatively affect their war effort but in reality it would require admitting hundrends of thousands of male Russians (and often their familes) were as trying to push so many raw recruits to the front when the Russians now lack the equipment and logistics to support and direct them is likely to be a **** show anyway. So I doubt it would actually make that much difference to the war but it might significantly undermine some other states bordering Russia.
 
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Ok so on reddit someone posted a drone footage where the camera zooms in on two Russian soldiers taking part in what appeared to be one of them smoking the other's pole. The drone then drops a munition taking them both out.

Whilst this is remarkable use of technology, it's also enough internet for one day :eek:
 
mrk said:
Ok so on reddit someone posted a drone footage where the camera zooms in on two Russian soldiers taking part in what appeared to be one of them smoking the other's pole. The drone then drops a munition taking them both out.

Whilst this is remarkable use of technology, it's also enough internet for one day :eek:
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They achieved an explosion of emotion, just not the one they expected
 
mrk said:
Ok so on reddit someone posted a drone footage where the camera zooms in on two Russian soldiers taking part in what appeared to be one of them smoking the other's pole. The drone then drops a munition taking them both out.

Whilst this is remarkable use of technology, it's also enough internet for one day :eek:
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That one with the grenade hitting the soldier on the head but failing to explode. He went down like a sack of spuds and the others looking around like WTF just happened :cry:
 
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