Motorsport Off Topic Thread

visibleman · 12 Oct 2022 at 11:52

Tigget said:
...and needs to be resolved quickly...

I'm sure most people aren't overly bothered about timescales, they would rather see a proper punishment dealt.

englishpremier said:
No it's not. Your quoted piece even shows that. It's an earlier action used as an example or guide to similar actions in the future. For it to set a precedent then requires that the FIA would considering it in a similar case in future. My believe is that they won't. Therefore I cannot see it as a precedent.

It opens the possibility for teams to look at the punishment dealt and determine whether or not it's worth the risk - if it is then they'll do the same or similar.
(Edit) And if that did happen and outcome was similar, then the FIA would have to consider the current scenario with RB and the punishment handed out otherwise there would be uproar amongst the paddock and fans.
Hence why the punishment, arguably, needs to be severe enough to prevent that happening.

If the regulations change around the budget/cost cap then it could become moot but it opens a whole can of worms in that people/teams will see it as being unfair and/or preferential treatment.

MissChief · 12 Oct 2022 at 12:43

If Red Bull are given a financial penalty then they'll just see that as an additional cost to the business and pay it. It won't stop them doing it again and other teams will see it as a green light to do the same and simply pay the fine. There needs to be a sporting cost that materially affects the team otherwise they'll all do it, knowing the consequences will be light.

DRZ · 12 Oct 2022 at 13:45

MissChief said:
If Red Bull are given a financial penalty then they'll just see that as an additional cost to the business and pay it. It won't stop them doing it again and other teams will see it as a green light to do the same and simply pay the fine. There needs to be a sporting cost that materially affects the team otherwise they'll all do it, knowing the consequences will be light.

Yep, 100%.

Mercedes F1 spent over £300m in 2020 so they have the money to burn if they want. If it turned out that the only consequence of breaching the cap was a financial one it just means that the richer teams can ignore it. I can definitely see other front-running teams deciding that £5m of extra development is worthwhile even if it comes with a £20-50m fine if it nets them a championship.

413x · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:09

MrKnifey said:
I wonder if we are going through a cycle, us older fans get fed up of all the drama, then the new fans come in and replace us, repeat every 10-15 years or so. After last year I was nearly done, this year I have literally watched half of the races, I think I'm done completely now..

Just watch highlights for fun. That's what I do now as I'm not really interested anymore.
Just an hour and a half on Sunday night before bed.

Highlights make it much more interesting. And it's shorter than a film.

413x · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:13

DRZ said:
Yep, 100%.

Mercedes F1 spent over £300m in 2020 so they have the money to burn if they want. If it turned out that the only consequence of breaching the cap was a financial one it just means that the richer teams can ignore it. I can definitely see other front-running teams deciding that £5m of extra development is worthwhile even if it comes with a £20-50m fine if it nets them a championship.

Big Issue F1 have created is this.

For Cost cap penalties to bite. You have to hit WDC/WCC points.
This can (and would) change results a year in the past.

You cannot have this is sport. Potentially changing a WDC/WCC result every year.

But you can't really apply it forwards or the penalty isn't affecting the crime.
You can't DSQ a team for a season.
You can't fine them financially.

No winners here.

Unfortunately the right thing to do is ~~sweep it under the carpet~~ Dock points from last year. Will be an uproar.

Is it even watchable? I'm not sure if it is.

SKILL · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:25

I don't see an issue changing results in the past, and it's been done in other sports for example Lance Armstrong being stripped of his Tour de France wins for doping, same thing really...

I kinda expect to see them hitting the WCC result for 2021, maybe even full disqualification, which itself implies some level of financial hit from the prize money along with an ongoing aero development restriction so they don't 'benefit' from finishing lower in the WCC, perhaps even more harsh which would give the added benefit of closing the gap over the next 12 months or so. This feels like it would be harsh enough without altering the WDC which is all most of the fans care abough, there's already enough people who (rightly! :cry:

) think Max doesn't deserve that title so not gonna change much

Or of course they'll give them a slap on the wrists and change the rules to stop anyone else using the 'grey areas' and we all get to see the smarmy grin on Horners face at the next race

Scam · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:38

englishpremier said:
My believe is that they won't.

Well I think you’re wrong. If X happens and then the people in charge do Y, the next time X happens then of course people will be comparing their action to what they did the last time (Y). It’s not to say they will do Y again but it’s comparable by the nature of being what they did last time.

Totally agree with the points made about a financial penalty. It just gives free reign to the bigger teams to suck up the financial penalty and we’re back to square one with them dominating again. For this reason I think they’ll dock the constructors points. To my understanding that actually would hit the team quite hard- but won’t be retreading the whole Abu Dhabi argument. Mind you, it still wouldn’t be fair as you’re admitting that RB cheated, yet letting them keep the drivers championship. It’s really not a good situation.

413x · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:41

SKILL said:
I don't see an issue changing results in the past, and it's been done in other sports for example Lance Armstrong being stripped of his Tour de France wins for doping, same thing really...

I kinda expect to see them hitting the WCC result for 2021, maybe even full disqualification, which itself implies some level of financial hit from the prize money along with an ongoing aero development restriction so they don't 'benefit' from finishing lower in the WCC, perhaps even more harsh which would give the added benefit of closing the gap over the next 12 months or so. This feels like it would be harsh enough without altering the WDC which is all most of the fans care abough, there's already enough people who (rightly! ) think Max doesn't deserve that title so not gonna change much

Or of course they'll give them a slap on the wrists and change the rules to stop anyone else using the 'grey areas' and we all get to see the smarmy grin on Horners face at the next race

Its hard because I expect a lot of fans want Hamilton on top step due to that last race. If it was fair and square last year. It might be different.

Its not a great solution as the driver clearly benefited.

What sucks is that there was no clear and explicit punishment.

bayo000 · 12 Oct 2022 at 14:57

Can't see FIA changing WDC as prize money is based on WCC results. RB disqualified from last year's championship and big points penalty for this season is as much as they'll do. I can see them docking RB 150-200 constructor points for this season but due to how dominant RB have been this season they should still win the WCC. That way FIA can say they imposed harsh punishment but also not upset one of the biggest teams.

Mr Jack · 12 Oct 2022 at 15:02

413x said:
You cannot have this is sport. Potentially changing a WDC/WCC result every year.

There's really no reason that this is something that should be producing anything other than an expectation of compliance each year. Especially if they do their job properly and penalise at a level that will ensure future compliance.

However, it doesn't seem to me that this couldn't be managed in a way that the budget is managed live so that an overspend is known immediately during a season (okay, within a few days or a week).

bayo000 said:
RB disqualified from last year's championship and big points penalty for this season is as much as they'll do. I can see them docking RB 150-200 constructor points for this season but due to how dominant RB have been this season they should still win the WCC.

The rules don't allow for a points deduction this season, it can only be applied to last.

bayo000 · 12 Oct 2022 at 15:24

Mr Jack said:
The rules don't allow for a points deduction this season, it can only be applied to last.

As a way out they can give RB 250 points penalty for last year's constructor championship but they still finish 2nd overall. FIA can claim they gave ~40% points penalty for a minor overspend, technically it sends a strong message but doesn't retrospectively affect anything.

Mr Jack · 12 Oct 2022 at 15:34

bayo000 said:
As a way out they can give RB 250 points penalty for last year's constructor championship but they still finish 2nd overall. FIA can claim they gave ~40% points penalty for a minor overspend, technically it sends a strong message but doesn't retrospectively affect anything.

Wouldn't be surprised to see that kind of fudge, tbh.

utajoker · 12 Oct 2022 at 15:47

Cant see how you can dock constructors points and not drivers. Their driver won with the car that was potentially illegally developed.

Armageus · 12 Oct 2022 at 16:01

utajoker said:
Cant see how you can dock constructors points and not drivers. Their driver won with the car that was potentially illegally developed.

The driver didn't tell them to overspend though. Same thing with engine penalties, prefer that drivers weren't so impacted by something they have little control over

DeliciousStorage · 12 Oct 2022 at 16:22

SKILL said:
I kinda expect to see them hitting the WCC result for 2021, maybe even full disqualification, which itself implies some level of financial hit from the prize money along with an ongoing aero development restriction so they don't 'benefit' from finishing lower in the WCC, perhaps even more harsh which would give the added benefit of closing the gap over the next 12 months or so. This feels like it would be harsh enough without altering the WDC which is all most of the fans care abough, there's already enough people who (rightly! ) think Max doesn't deserve that title so not gonna change much

Definitely wouldn't be harsh enough, they don't give a damn if they are disqualified from the 2021 constructors championship instead of finishing 2nd.

visibleman · 12 Oct 2022 at 16:34

413x said:
You cannot have this is sport. Potentially changing a WDC/WCC result every year.

If other sports can manage to strip titles from previous seasons, then i don't understand why F1 can't do similar :confused:

Mr Jack said:
The rules don't allow for a points deduction this season, it can only be applied to last.

Problem is, additional spending can affect the following season(s) so there is a possible loophole whereby teams can have a "down" season with massive overspend, get penalised for that season, to then give them the possibility to become dominate in the next (few).

Similar to what others have already said, any punishment really needs to cripple them not only to nullify any potential advantage they've had but to also send a clear message to other teams.
In the words of RocketPoweredMohawk (i won't link to the video due to being a bit sweary), "...you can't give these dirty F1 teams room to breath.", "...if you tell them they can just stick the tip in, they'll go full shaft plus the ********."

Mr Jack · 12 Oct 2022 at 16:34

utajoker said:
Cant see how you can dock constructors points and not drivers. Their driver won with the car that was potentially illegally developed.

Yeah, applying WCC only points deductions would be utterly perverse.

Scam · 12 Oct 2022 at 16:42

utajoker said:
Cant see how you can dock constructors points and not drivers. Their driver won with the car that was ~~potentially~~ illegally developed.

I fixed it for you. There's no 'potentially' about it anymore, RB have breached the cap. All we're waiting to hear is the penalty.

Armageus said:
The driver didn't tell them to overspend though. Same thing with engine penalties, prefer that drivers weren't so impacted by something they have little control over

That doesn't make sense. A driver can win in an illegal car yet it doesn't matter because they didn't know? There's plenty about the car that the drivers are probably unaware of... If the team is cheating then the team is cheating

Armageus · 12 Oct 2022 at 17:09

Scam said:
That doesn't make sense. A driver can win in an illegal car yet it doesn't matter because they didn't know? There's plenty about the car that the drivers are probably unaware of... If the team is cheating then the team is cheating

Wouldn't disqualifying them from the Constructors (and the resulting financial hit that would bring) be enough though? Surely that penalises the actual "criminal"?

Obviously though since it's Red Bull, nothing less than full disqualification from both the WDC and WCC from 2021-2025 will be enough for you. :rolleyes:

DeliciousStorage · 12 Oct 2022 at 17:21

Armageus said:
Wouldn't disqualifying them from the Constructors (and the resulting financial hit that would bring) be enough though? Surely that penalises the actual "criminal"?

Obviously though since it's Red Bull, nothing less than full disqualification from both the WDC and WCC from 2021-2025 won't be enough for you.

The drivers championship is the one the team really cares about most, Red Bull even said so in 2021. Penalising the constructors only and the resulting financial hit would simply be a luxury tax for the top teams and the cost cap would have failed. Also the driver is part of the team.

If a coach slips banned performance enhancers into an athletes nutrition shakes, should they only punish the coach because the athlete didn't know? If not, why should it be any different for F1?