Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

[Werewolf]

Or just run with worn bearings until failure.

Especially if you don't necessarily have the trained mechanics who know how to check for signs of wear, or access to the records and maintenance manuals that tell you when you should be doing it.

Given how many Russians who had the means and skills ran from the country early on to avoid the drafts, and how it seems that the draft was pulling in anyone they could get their mitts on in certain areas regardless of occupation I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a shortage of qualified aircraft mechanics at a time when they probably need more in order to do more frequent checks as you can run past manufacturers "replacement" times on some parts if you're careful and do more regular checks, but it's a risk and does require much more frequent checking (manufacturers tend to be conservative in how long they expect bits to last in aircraft to allow a good margin of error but you get the edge cases that fail early or not long after that limit).

 

[jigger]

It's a pity the Ukrainians have to rely on Musk when he can be such a dangerous fool:

Elon Musk likes to think he saved us from Armageddon. He’s just brought it closer | Timothy Snyder

Whatever his new biography says, by giving into Russia’s nuclear blackmail the X boss can only encourage more threats from Putin

www.theguardian.com

Elon is only saving the lost cause that is Putins image.

 

[Hades]

We seem to be returning to the old era where you wouldn't risk your life flying on Aeroflot. Their aircraft were falling apart by the end of the Soviet era.

 

[Dis86]

One of the most ironic things is that Russia levelled the site that produced some of the best raw steel available to them.

 

[ubersonic]

For that you need people and knowledge to do it and they seem to be sending their labour/knowledge pool to slaughter. The problem this time, unlike WW2, is that the US isn’t sending them equipment to make up for the shortfall.

One of the many problems with Russian society, is that most of them genuinely believe (due to education) that in WW2 France surrendered, America provided thoughts and prayers, and Britain stayed on our island cowering until Russia had Hitler beat then rushed over with America to grab some glory. They don't realise that the Soviet steamroller that crushed it's way to Berlin used allied tanks, vehicles, fuel, food and even steam trains.

I would wager that this illusion has been ongoing for so long now that it even infects some of their military commanders and decision makers. While Putin has spent years surrounding himself with yes men there are many like Dmitry Medvedev who seem to believe their own hype.

There's been claims made Russia is using Chinese ball bearings but their not made to a suitable standard that they can reliability replace what they were buying from Europe. Knowing Russians though they will make do with anything if it can get the job done sufficiently.

It's worth noting that there is a long running myth that Chinese manufacturing/machining is inferior to say US manufacturing/machining, it's a complete illusion. The reason for this belief, is that so much of the garbage seen in the west is produced in China, because the labour/materials cost of having it made there is so cheaper than having it made here it more than covers the cost of shipping. But that's the bit most trip up on, if you see western companies selling garbage made in China that's almost always because when agreeing the specifications for their product they specifically opted for low quality materials and novice machinists in order to maximise profit.

The reality is that Chinese manufacturing/machining has been on par with the west for some time (which makes sense as the equipment used these days is very similar if not the same), we just never really see it over here because if you're paying for quality materials and your paying for a skilled machinist to program/monitor the machines then you will actually save money by having it done domestically instead of imported.

 

[ubersonic]

We seem to be returning to the old era where you wouldn't risk your life flying on Aeroflot. Their aircraft were falling apart by the end of the Soviet era.

It's quite telling that Kim (an avid flyer) took a Train from NK to Moscow instead of using one of his private Russian Il-62 airliners, I guess he doesn't like not being able to get the parts to maintain them

He could have opted to fly Air Koryo (NK national airline) on a much newer Russian Tu-204 airliner but they can't get the parts for them either. Comically he could have used one of Air Koryo's <10 year old An-148 airliners, but I'm not sure how Vlad would have felt about him rocking up in Moscow on a Ukrainian plane that's better than anything he has

 

[martynr]

It's a pity the Ukrainians have to rely on Musk when he can be such a dangerous fool:

Elon Musk likes to think he saved us from Armageddon. He’s just brought it closer | Timothy Snyder

Whatever his new biography says, by giving into Russia’s nuclear blackmail the X boss can only encourage more threats from Putin

www.theguardian.com

And that piece of turd depends on ketamine...

 

[jigger]

Especially if you don't necessarily have the trained mechanics who know how to check for signs of wear, or access to the records and maintenance manuals that tell you when you should be doing it.

Given how many Russians who had the means and skills ran from the country early on to avoid the drafts, and how it seems that the draft was pulling in anyone they could get their mitts on in certain areas regardless of occupation I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a shortage of qualified aircraft mechanics at a time when they probably need more in order to do more frequent checks as you can run past manufacturers "replacement" times on some parts if you're careful and do more regular checks, but it's a risk and does require much more frequent checking (manufacturers tend to be conservative in how long they expect bits to last in aircraft to allow a good margin of error but you get the edge cases that fail early or not long after that limit).

I think that has very likely become the situation for Russia.
I’d imagine you can ‘get away’ with taking some types servicing short cuts to a point, as the engineers and system designers probably have some level of fault tolerance engineered into the specifications. The danger is your technicians start making assumptions based on previously getting ‘away with it’ and culture of ‘Dave never bothers changing/doing X and Dave is the head of training’ sets in.

 

[Rilot]

We seem to be returning to the old era where you wouldn't risk your life flying on Aeroflot. Their aircraft were falling apart by the end of the Soviet era.

My dad visited the USSR in the late 80s as part of a tour. It was a similar deal like if you want to visit North Korea now. Party tour guide and you can only go to places that are approved.
Anyway, he went on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow to Kazakhstan and he said it was the most frightening thing he'd ever done. Plane with some masks hanging down due to the release doors having failed, seats missing belts, and a pilot who was ex Soviet Air-Force and took "Defend to 5,000ft" as "Descend to 5,000ft as fast as the plane can handle", and "Turn to heading 170" as "Bank at nearly 90 degrees and pull back on the sicks as hard as the airframe can handle without breaking up".
He said he's never been happier to get off a plane in his life.

 

[Hades]

One of the many problems with Russian society, is that most of them genuinely believe (due to education) that in WW2 France surrendered, America provided thoughts and prayers, and Britain stayed on our island cowering until Russia had Hitler beat then rushed over with America to grab some glory. They don't realise that the Soviet steamroller that crushed it's way to Berlin used allied tanks, vehicles, fuel, food and even steam trains.

I would wager that this illusion has been ongoing for so long now that it even infects some of their military commanders and decision makers. While Putin has spent years surrounding himself with yes men there are many like Dmitry Medvedev who seem to believe their own hype.



It's worth noting that there is a long running myth that Chinese manufacturing/machining is inferior to say US manufacturing/machining, it's a complete illusion. The reason for this belief, is that so much of the garbage seen in the west is produced in China, because the labour/materials cost of having it made there is so cheaper than having it made here it more than covers the cost of shipping. But that's the bit most trip up on, if you see western companies selling garbage made in China that's almost always because when agreeing the specifications for their product they specifically opted for low quality materials and novice machinists in order to maximise profit.

The reality is that Chinese manufacturing/machining has been on par with the west for some time (which makes sense as the equipment used these days is very similar if not the same), we just never really see it over here because if you're paying for quality materials and your paying for a skilled machinist to program/monitor the machines then you will actually save money by having it done domestically instead of imported.

Completely agree with both points. Russia survived WW2 because of allied supplies. The allies also benefited greatly from it of course. The allies had a second front and millions of Russain men to throw themselves at the Germans while Russia gained the logistics and supplies of the allies. In some ways it is the same as the West is doing with Ukraine; provide supplies and let the host country use their manpower.

Also totally agree with Chinese manufacturing. The "cheap tat" is just because of the price point.

 

[alchal]

One of the many problems with Russian society, is that most of them genuinely believe (due to education) that in WW2 France surrendered, America provided thoughts and prayers, and Britain stayed on our island cowering until Russia had Hitler beat then rushed over with America to grab some glory. They don't realise that the Soviet steamroller that crushed it's way to Berlin used allied tanks, vehicles, fuel, food and even steam trains.

I would wager that this illusion has been ongoing for so long now that it even infects some of their military commanders and decision makers. While Putin has spent years surrounding himself with yes men there are many like Dmitry Medvedev who seem to believe their own hype.



It's worth noting that there is a long running myth that Chinese manufacturing/machining is inferior to say US manufacturing/machining, it's a complete illusion. The reason for this belief, is that so much of the garbage seen in the west is produced in China, because the labour/materials cost of having it made there is so cheaper than having it made here it more than covers the cost of shipping. But that's the bit most trip up on, if you see western companies selling garbage made in China that's almost always because when agreeing the specifications for their product they specifically opted for low quality materials and novice machinists in order to maximise profit.

The reality is that Chinese manufacturing/machining has been on par with the west for some time (which makes sense as the equipment used these days is very similar if not the same), we just never really see it over here because if you're paying for quality materials and your paying for a skilled machinist to program/monitor the machines then you will actually save money by having it done domestically instead of imported.

Or the fact they helped train the Luftwaffe and develop the panzers etc etc leading up to ww2 or invading Poland hand in hand with Hitler...

Amazing what they can easily forget.

 

[Nate75]

My dad visited the USSR in the late 80s as part of a tour. It was a similar deal like if you want to visit North Korea now. Party tour guide and you can only go to places that are approved.
Anyway, he went on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow to Kazakhstan and he said it was the most frightening thing he'd ever done. Plane with some masks hanging down due to the release doors having failed, seats missing belts, and a pilot who was ex Soviet Air-Force and took "Defend to 5,000ft" as "Descend to 5,000ft as fast as the plane can handle", and "Turn to heading 170" as "Bank at nearly 90 degrees and pull back on the sicks as hard as the airframe can handle without breaking up".
He said he's never been happier to get off a plane in his life.

Sounds like Ryanair.

Although having said that I have been on a military plane as a child. UK etc.

When I went to rural India, as in right in the sticks (only 10 or so years ago). The "airport" was basically a couple of men with AK's. The flight was propellared, that was a tad risky.

I digress, on with the thread.

 

[Werewolf]

The reality is that Chinese manufacturing/machining has been on par with the west for some time (which makes sense as the equipment used these days is very similar if not the same), we just never really see it over here because if you're paying for quality materials and your paying for a skilled machinist to program/monitor the machines then you will actually save money by having it done domestically instead of imported.

Yup

China can produce stuff to the same/nearly the same level as anywhere but as you say for the precision stuff it's still often cheaper to produce domestically than import so we don't see it*, and even things like the ball point pen nibs wasn't really a lack of ability for China, it was that there was no profit in them for a long time to work out how to do it it (the entire manufacturing process) and I suspect no one was willing to sell them the technology/method so they were having to work out how to make the machinery to make the nibs and that is something that always takes time to do (I suspect they were probably able to turn out individual ones fairly quickly using skilled machinists all alone).

Unfortunately for Russia a lot of it's industry has spent so long with bosses pretending they're able to do stuff that now they're under sanctions the top brass are probably only now realising the corruption and lying they allowed in order to make money and get hold of power goes all the way down and not just in the bits they'd specifically allowed it, and at a much wider level than they may have thought.

I was watching some videos by the lock picking lawyer (oddly entertaining and informative) where he was looking at unusual locks from Russia and pointing out exactly why some locks required 2 or 3 keys despite being for relatively normal usage (normally you only see dual key locks for high value or high risk stuff, IIRC these were locks for standard uses), and it was basically that theft and corruption was so high and normalised that even back in the 80's it was expected that even management would be trying to steal cheap stuff from a warehouse.


*Or at least don't see the individual parts that might be very high quality, but are inside some "cheap tat" that fails for another reason.

 

[jigger]

Or the fact they helped train the Luftwaffe and develop the panzers etc etc leading up to ww2 or invading Poland hand in hand with Hitler...

Amazing what they can easily forget.

Almost completely written out of Russian history. Russians don’t even consider themselves as part of the allied force that conquered the fascist axis.

For many Russians the Second World War was about Russia setting the world straight.

 

[Rroff]

Especially if you don't necessarily have the trained mechanics who know how to check for signs of wear, or access to the records and maintenance manuals that tell you when you should be doing it.

Given how many Russians who had the means and skills ran from the country early on to avoid the drafts, and how it seems that the draft was pulling in anyone they could get their mitts on in certain areas regardless of occupation I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there is a shortage of qualified aircraft mechanics at a time when they probably need more in order to do more frequent checks as you can run past manufacturers "replacement" times on some parts if you're careful and do more regular checks, but it's a risk and does require much more frequent checking (manufacturers tend to be conservative in how long they expect bits to last in aircraft to allow a good margin of error but you get the edge cases that fail early or not long after that limit).

Maintaining aircraft properly, especially passenger ones, is extremely complex - albeit more for understanding failures than maintenance but my brother in law used to work for Rolls Royce doing testing of aerospace parts which included all kinds of ultrasound, x-ray, etc. stuff to examine stresses.

 

[Nate75]

-

 

[Nate75]

Maintaining aircraft properly, especially passenger ones, is extremely complex - albeit more for understanding failures than maintenance but my brother in law used to work for Rolls Royce doing testing of aerospace parts which included all kinds of ultrasound, x-ray, etc. stuff to examine stresses.

Bristol?

 

[bris]

It's a pity the Ukrainians have to rely on Musk when he can be such a dangerous fool:

Elon Musk likes to think he saved us from Armageddon. He’s just brought it closer | Timothy Snyder

Whatever his new biography says, by giving into Russia’s nuclear blackmail the X boss can only encourage more threats from Putin

www.theguardian.com

Musk is thinking not about Ukraine but about the business he wants to do in Russia.

if he goes lightly and even favours them on occasion then they will not be against him

Like trump he is playing both sides because there is a buck or two in it for him further down the line.

 

[rumple9]

you really believe they can't make ball bearings? a thing people were making almost since time began

Russia - Ball bearings

They have been buying them in from china but they are of poor quality and tend to fail apparently

 

[Sankari]

Same playbook.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1703382512029061344