Junior Doctors Strikes

[Tram]

Great so your recipe is for the third world to continue to come to the UK but UK citizens decamp elsewhere.

Off topic and tongue in cheek. You need not reply

Yes.

Well life is short, if the country doesn't change then you need to change country.

Some Doctors are underpaid, but the country can't afford to pay them. To increase wages they need to increase taxes, and/or increase other streams of taxation,but increasing tax to the level needed would hurt the economy.

The government needs to change a lot of policies but they aren't, the people in this country are too lazy to protest, the British seem to accept everything and unsure why they do.

Governments seem to think the private sector has deep pockets, they keep finding ways to take. They don't really hit the public sector in ways they should do.

I am not willing to be part of of a system which offers less and charges more. and refuses to design policies such as who has access to services, immigration and who gets the subsidies etc..
They have sold off income producing assets, for the benefit of the few.

The UK needs to accept they are no longer what they once were and need to accept they are mediocre now. The UK needs protect what it has not sell what it has.

Honestly, the UK is finished and will continued to fall from grace like all once powerful countries do.
it is no longer a country I can identify with. These doctors will learn they will never get the status they once had or the standard of living ever again.

You get to an age because of life experience, then realise your time is short or can be taken away so fast. Why spend your time in a country they refuse to change or still think they are influential like they were 100 years ago.

We both pay hell of a lot in tax, and I need to wait weeks to see a GP.. Yes, I do mean a LOT in tax, I look at what we pay and think, I still have to wait for weeks for a gp. My taxes are going to waste and being transferred to a certain powerful groups of individuals or organisations in this country.

Taxes will rise, I am no longer willing to give even more in tax from our earnings I can see the tax band rise to 24% band 45% band and the additional rate 50% band, I see taxes in other areas also increase for nothing in return.

I see theft of the family homes via IHT in this country, and even more corporate landlords.
Look at leasehold in this country and the problems it has.
All the promises for change by governments which never happened and still fleecing the ordinary citizen.

Now I am emigrating going to a country were my tax money will be used efficiently and I can get to see a GP the next day, I am very happy to pay taxes
I can buy a property for a reasonable price in the country I am move too and earn a good wage that will allow me to have a good work life balance and enjoy life.

You can stay and suffer be miserable work like donkey ear poor quality food etc.. Not me I have worked abroad and seen the quality of live you gain.

My advice for these doctors move countries.

Btw A.I will make it even worse for workers wages.
( Just woke up from my nap)

 

[jpaul]

doctors are talking the talk - but in practice how many emigrate
(and in real life you find a lot of attrition, from personal observation in engineering professions about 60% after 3 years)

as the Times article also says V so pay is not so important , half a red herring.

But while an improved salary will surely help, the role of pay in the NHS’s retention problem is often overstated. When a cohort of doctors who recently left the UK were asked what had prompted them to go, they were about twice as likely to point to workplace culture, burnout and stress as to financial reasons. This is corroborated by NHS data, which shows that the huge increase in voluntary resignations over the past two years has been driven by people citing problems with their work-life balance

moreover though(& FT doesn't even mention) , native english speaking contribute to dissimilarity between emigrates from UK versus other countries ie. why people go to Australia in spades - because they can
as gmc report survey shows V
I wonder how many remain there permanently(hmmh), but maybe we should just incorporate the uk economic cost into trade negotiations.

 

[Tram]

doctors are talking the talk - but in practice how many emigrate
(and in real life you find a lot of attrition, from personal observation in engineering professions about 60% after 3 years)

Many engineers are leaving the UK because the pay is low, yet engineering professions are one of the foundations of an economy. In fact, many British engineers are now working abroad, where they are better compensated and more appreciated. They often bring significant value to foreign companies, leading innovation teams.

Without boasting I am knowledge inference engineer with ML, a "hybrid engineer", I moved into that area a few years ago, the pay in the UK is good but when you look at what offered in other countries, you wonder am i being ripped off, the answer is YES.
You’d be surprised, it's not difficult once you understand the foundations.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Problem in this country is that everyone wants services but no one wants to pay taxes. Something has to give.

 

[Hagar]

Many engineers are leaving the UK because the pay is low, yet engineering professions are one of the foundations of an economy. In fact, many British engineers are now working abroad, where they are better compensated and more appreciated. They often bring significant value to foreign companies, leading innovation teams.

Without boasting I am knowledge inference engineer with ML, a "hybrid engineer", I moved into that area a few years ago, the pay in the UK is good but when you look at what offered in other countries, you wonder am i being ripped off, the answer is YES.
You’d be surprised, it's not difficult once you understand the foundations.

The thing being that having a professional qualification in a demand area, medicine, some branches of engineering is that it trumps nationality. A skill with language is a huge plus and having both allows the holder to work almost anywhere. I was Member of the Institution of Civil Engineers before retirement and whilst the large bulk of my work was in the UK I had the contacts to work in many places except maybe Japan which is notoriously difficult.

 

[Resident]

Problem in this country is that everyone wants services but no one wants to pay taxes. Something has to give.

The problem is that we DO pay our taxes, a hefty amount and in total, if it wasn't squandered by the government sending it out of the system then there would be enough to pay for it.

Over £15 BILLION in foreign aid, including 'aid' sent to a country that has it's own space program.

Money that would pay for the 29% demand 13 times over.

Anyway back on topic, I think it's just pure greed

In total over the last 2 and a bit years they've had a 27.4% increase, a fact they like to conveniently leave out in the mainstream media and now want a further 29%, which would equal 56.4% over the course of the last 3 years.

Through social media a lot of the public know and this is one of the reasons the doctors don't have the public on-side.

 

[PlacidCasual]

I think if they acknowledged the parlous state of the nations finances and accepted a slower closing of the gap it would be far more popular.

 

[Tram]

The problem is that we DO pay our taxes, a hefty amount and in total, if it wasn't squandered by the government sending it out of the system then there would be enough to pay for it.

Over £15 BILLION in foreign aid, including 'aid' sent to a country that has it's own space program.

Money that would pay for the 29% demand 13 times over.

Anyway back on topic, I think it's just pure greed

In total over the last 2 and a bit years they've had a 27.4% increase, a fact they like to conveniently leave out in the mainstream media and now want a further 29%, which would equal 56.4% over the course of the last 3 years.

Through social media a lot of the public know and this is one of the reasons the doctors don't have the public on-side.

You need work to pay, you need it to pay more then living costs. You pay a good rate you get higher chance of quality you don't pay you get people using the system to gain experience and then move to another country. This is what seems to be happening with the NHS.

It gets more expensive in one area and cheap in another, in wrong combinations causes problems. This is what is happening in the UK, part of the blame is globalisation.and other part restrictions that should be in place aren't and in places they should be are not.

 

[Minstadave]

I think if they acknowledged the parlous state of the nations finances and accepted a slower closing of the gap it would be far more popular.

I dont think they've ever asked for it in one go.

We've reached an odd situation where it now takes several years now working as a doctor to be paid more than a doctors assistant that works less hours and is less useful, but the government is pushing forwards with recruiting en masse.

 

[Resident]

You need work to pay, you need it to pay more then living costs. You pay a good rate you get higher chance of quality you don't pay you get people using the system to gain experience and then move to another country. This is what seems to be happening with the NHS.

It gets more expensive in one area and cheap in another, in wrong combinations causes problems. This is what is happening in the UK, part of the blame is globalisation.and other part restrictions that should be in place aren't and in places they should be are not.

So fo you think a near 60% pay rise in 3 years is reasonable?

 

[Minstadave]

So fo you think a near 60% pay rise in 3 years is reasonable?

They're not asking for it in one year, I thought they asked for a pathway to FPR.

 

[Koalaboy]

Move them off Defined Benefit pensions to the same as most everyone else, then we can start talking.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Move them off Defined Benefit pensions to the same as most everyone else, then we can start talking.

Why?

Surely the question being asked is why you don’t have a defined benefit pension scheme…

Otherwise known as just because your employer offers a worse pension, doesn’t mean someone else who gets a better one should have theirs eroded.

 

[swillsy]

Why?

Surely the question being asked is why you don’t have a defined benefit pension scheme…

Otherwise known as just because your employer offers a worse pension, doesn’t mean someone else who gets a better one should have theirs eroded.

the employer is the tax payer so that argument doesn't work - there's some councils in the UK where over 50% of the council tax goes on servicing pensions for council workers. It's not sustainable for the UK as a whole to do this for everyone nor would it be for a company. I'm glad that pensions aren't tied to employers based on horror stories over the years.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

It’s utterly irrelevant who the employer is.

You are advocating for a race to the bottom because your pension is worse rather than asking employers to give their ex employees a decent retirement.

The issue you point out isn’t because of a defined benefit pension scheme. It’s because the government decided when it set those pensions up they would be unfunded meaning no money was set aside at the time the liability was accrued to pay the pension later. They decided to make it a future generations problem.

The issue is you can’t go back and make previous generations pay for the things they didn’t fully fund in the past, now current generations are picking up the bill.

Edit: if you moved 1.3 million NHS workers off can kicking defined benefit schemes onto defined contribution schemes you’d add billions onto the NHS budget because you’d have to fund both current employees pensions and past employees pensions at the same time.

At least with maintaining the status quo you continue to kick the can on existing employees until later. Current employees are on far worse terms than those of the past anyway so the cost will reduce significantly over time anyway.

Edit2: the irony behind not fully funding the pension schemes is that there is less money available for the government to invest and make a return on. See the Canadian teachers pension funds as an example. The Ontario teachers fund as $260bn of assets under its management.

Edit3: most good employers used to have a defined benefit pension. They stopped because, why fund your employees pensions when you could prioritise shareholder profits. It’s that simple.

 

[PlacidCasual]

The New Labour Government also removed tax exemptions on pension investment dividends at a stroke destroying the private Defined Benefit pension industry. It is not unreasonable to ask why tax payers are funding lavish pensions in the public sector having previously suffered such grievous harm to the private pensions sector.

 

[Koalaboy]

You are advocating for a race to the bottom because your pension is worse rather than asking employers to give their ex employees a decent retirement.

No, I'm advocating for them to be realistic in a world where things are already unsustainable and they already do far better than most people in the country.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

It’s a bit rich calling them ‘lavish’ given they are substantially worse than public sector pensions of the past.

They are not final salary which most people seem to think they are, they are based on a career average salary. Public sector salaries, particularly resident doctors are considered to be ‘poor’.

It’s also got significant constraints, you can’t claim it prior to state pension age (which keeps moving to the right) without giving up 10% of its value per year you take it early. There is no flexi draw down, you are locked into an annuity. Voluntary contributions are ridiculously expensive, as is paying towards being able to retire earlier than state pension age, to the point they might as well not exist unless you are in some silly 60% marginal rate of tax.

I doubt the current crop of doctors will be retiring early unlike their ‘gold plated’ colleagues of the past who had access to final salary pensions at the age of 60, oh and not to mention those people at zero student tuition fees either and a lower employee contribution to the pension.

 

[Infidelus]

Absolute tosh. I've worked for both the NHS and private practices and I don't have an iota of sympathy for doctors, junior or otherwise. Once they are fully trained and actually have some work experience their salaries are way higher than I will ever earn, by a magnitude of 200% minimum. They may only start on ~£35,000 but in 10 years most of them will likely be on double that, especially if they enter private practice, and if they can't live happily and retire on that kind of salary then they're definitely doing something wrong!

 

[b0rn2sk8]

No, I'm advocating for them to be realistic in a world where things are already unsustainable and they already do far better than most people in the country.

But you are looking at pensions which were accrued in the past which bear little resemblance of what existing NHS and other public sector workers are due to get in the future - they are not the same.

Likewise they are only ‘unsustainable’ in your eyes because the government of the past didn’t fund them. That is the crux of the issue.

In reality £10’s of billions of future pension liabilities have already been cut from the public sector bill off the back of the changes let out in my previous post.

It will just take a few years to filter though because you need enough of the oldest pensioners with final salary pensions to die and replaced with new pensioners who get the ‘public sector pension lite’ version.

IIRC, those aforementioned changes would have saved even more money if the previous Conservative government wasn’t completely incompetent. I can’t remember how much the McCloud judgment cost them but it’s bound to be measured in £Bns. The McCloud judgment came about because the transitional arrangements were found to be discriminatory.

Edit: according to AI the McCloud judgment has cost the government £17bn to date.

The 2011-2015 reforms are expected to drop the public sector pensions bill from 2.1% of GDP to 1.5% of GDP by 2065. UK GDP is currently ~£3tn, so a 0.6% drop is pretty significant.