EV general discussion

[Rroff]

Which is utterly irrelevant to my point. No matter how you break it down, the majority of car owners in the UK have access to off street parking. So moving to an EV is not as big an inconvenience as many assume.

Point is what might work for some or even a lot of areas doesn't necessarily work in all areas, sure it might mean greater overall adoption might be possible but it isn't as simple as the average stats might appear to make out.

I think the RAC data is a bit off from reality as well - at least around here in the urban areas a lot of off street parking isn't suitable to EV charging, or at least as someone alluded to above there are significant stumbling blocks in terms of who pays for it, etc.

 

[ICDP]

Snip *** sure it might mean greater overall adoption might be possible ***

So you do get the point thanks.

 

[Rroff]

So you do get the point thanks.

I get the point, I disagree with how relatively trivial you are making it out to be for the majority of car owners, and there is the mess when it comes to houses vs vehicles owners - even where a home has access to off-street parking that doesn't mean it can accommodate all the potential EV owners in the household.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I get the point, I disagree with how relatively trivial you are making it out to be for the majority of car owners, and there is the mess when it comes to houses vs vehicles owners - even where a home has access to off-street parking that doesn't mean it can accommodate all the potential EV owners in the household.

When I lived with the inlaw's we were a 5 car hosehold for a time with daily commutes so pretty much at the extreme end of things. We would have needed 2 chargers, not 5.

Most people need to charge up once or twice a week in reality.

 

[Rroff]

When I lived with the inlaw's we were a 5 car hosehold for a time with daily commutes so pretty much at the extreme end of things. We would have needed 2 chargers, not 5.

Most people need to charge up once or twice a week in reality.

Something which would become easier with increasing ranges and shorter charging times, but it can still be more complicated than people think - I'm not uncommonly questioned about my vehicle usage and why I don't use EVs more by people who aren't seeing the full picture and can't understand how those edge cases which do happen, probably less than 5% of the time, are a disproportionate stumbling block and in reality a complete non-starter.

 

[lordrobs]

Same situation. Joined Tomato Energy at the beginning of December and my experience all this time from the online consumption tracker and my monthly debits has been faultless.

60 quid monthly electric running the house and my Ioniq 28kwh has been pretty sweet especially as I was fully expecting them to go bump like Bulb previously but now that my year is coming to and end what would be my next move?

Likewise I also kept our gas with Octopus but their 65p SC stings compared to Tomato's 45p daily.

Well, I'm back to Octopus as of next week.

Off peak up 3.8p/KW (+58%)
Peak up 7p/kw (+27%)
No 4 hours a day at 13p/KW (+74% for those hours)
Standing charge up 7p a day (+16%)

... thanks Greg

Honestly, I hope Tomato keep soldiering on and teach me a lesson for losing faith!

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Crap isn’t it. Runs a credible company that can manage its revenue stream against costs… I think I called it about a year ago my doubts on tomato and would struggle, seems they are due to passata out rather than ketchup.

 

[lordrobs]

Crap isn’t it. Runs a credible company that can manage its revenue stream against costs… I think I called it about a year ago my doubts on tomato and would struggle, seems they are due to passata out rather than ketchup.

Yeah I was making light of it. I was on Octopus Go before so I'm just going back to where I was in terms of prices.

TBH I thought the early cheap tariff was just a foot in the door to try and launch their Tomatopia solar panel and battery storage tariff.

It was worth a punt, I'm a few hundred quid up for zero effort. Last time I took a punt on a startup energy company that was absolutely hemorrhaging cash it turned out pretty well for them.

 

[ICDP]

Well the problem is when you look at your own self admitted fringe use case and simply extrapolate that out to millions for the rest of the country.

It’s why proper studies will always trump anecdotal evidence and flawed logic.

Let’s look at some known data:

There are roughly 26 million households in the UK.

It is estimated that roughly 22% of households do not have access to a car. That leaves roughly 20 million with at least one car.

There are over 30 million cars registered in the UK.

So that’s about 1.5 cars on average per household that do have a car or cars.

If we extrapolate that 70% of the 20 million homes with access to off street parking, at an average of about 1.5 cars. That makes roughly 14 million x 1.5 cars = 21 million out of the 30 million registered cars that have access to off street parking.

That means the majority of car owners in the UK can indeed switch to EV without issue. Man maths for the win

 

[Rroff]

Well the problem is when you look at your own self admitted fringe use case and simply extrapolate that out to millions for the rest of the country.

My point was when it comes to the average picture the edge cases uses hide a lot of nuance, a lot of people have fringe uses which can make a huge difference to what works for them despite otherwise appearing close to the average motorist. And when you start breaking down that "have access to off street parking" the reality is far less trivial than the average picture would seem to make out - a lot of people's off road parking technically could support an EV, reality it is a lot more complicated.

 

[ICDP]

No, it really isn’t complicated at all. Fringe cases aren’t the norm, that’s why they are called fringe cases.

Studies and statistics show that as of this very moment, the majority* of drivers in the UK have zero private parking, or fringe use cases that would make switching from ICE to an EV “unworkable”.

* We know majority does not mean all, but it does mean “the most”. You finding a fringe case and repeating the phrase “it’s complicated” does not invalidate that fact.

 

[TNA]

This is what I don't understand. This whole thread a year ago was absolutely toxic for it, you couldn't come in here and ask a question without some folks thinking that you were attacking their life choices directly, and they got awfully emotional about it. I still don't understand the reasoning behind this but whatevs, things have moved on.

Personally if I'm an early-ish adopter of something and randoms start asking questions then I'm all for it, the more people I engage with, the more people I have to talk to about something I enjoy talking about. Would I think to question anyone not participating in it? No, not at all. This attitude of attacking people because they have the audacity to participate in something I enjoy is genuinely mind boggling.

Very odd mentality.

It is. I have had an EV now for 4-5 months and love it. Would never want to go back to ICE.

My attitude has not changed so don't worry, buying an EV does not turn you into a idiot like that. Those users were a idiot before buying an EV

 

[Junglist]

Got a link for that? Considering the majority of homes in the uk are terraced, are you not getting mixed up the 75% of new build houses will have off street parking

Our last house had off street parking. But it was a space around the corner and not able to have charging.

 

[Rroff]

No, it really isn’t complicated at all. Fringe cases aren’t the norm, that’s why they are called fringe cases.

Studies and statistics show that as of this very moment, the majority* of drivers in the UK have zero private parking, or fringe use cases that would make switching from ICE to an EV “unworkable”.

* We know majority does not mean all, but it does mean “the most”. You finding a fringe case and repeating the phrase “it’s complicated” does not invalidate that fact.

You aren't understanding what I mean by what you are referring to as fringe cases, very few people's lives are a perfect fit for the average in this situation and those little fringe elements that don't fit often present a disproportionate hurdle.

 

[mrgubby]

70% of people *may* have access to off street parking but that does not necessarily mean their own dedicated space / charger. I work on many new builds in the south east and there is normally less charging spaces than disabled spaces. It would be nice if everyone took their turn at the charging point then moved but people are people

 

[sovietspybob]

I tow a caravan with mine regularly, YMMV but so far I’ve not really found to to be a major issue. We only have an EV, no ICE cars as a backup.

Could I do with a bit more range, sure, but I don’t really need that much more.

The new iX3 looks like it will make for a much nicer tow vehicle than my current Tesla.

I guess you have a model Y?

Out of interest what range do you get towing?

I guess you have to unhitch to be able to charge when en route to the site you're staying? Is that much of a faff?

 

[gailjon]

Not about to join the debate about what is good and what is bad or what I care about thank you.

No problem for children in cities who are being poisoned by ICE fumes then?

 

[gailjon]

I wonder if my Big Trak can be classed as my first EV?.....

Certainly could be, especially as it had FSD.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I guess you have a model Y?

Out of interest what range do you get towing?

I guess you have to unhitch to be able to charge when en route to the site you're staying? Is that much of a faff?

Yes a model Y.

Range is essentially determined by speed and the size of the front of the caravan and raw battery capacity. Weight and length doesn’t really make much difference. Wind also has a material impact as you are essentially towing a parachute.

I’ve got a standard 7ft6 wide caravan and if I’m on a long run, and tuck it in with the trucks at 56-60, it’s about 135 miles from 100% with a buffer (e.g. 145ish miles to zero).

Slower roads extends it out although stop start can drop it down as the caravans fiction brakes will come on when you slow down/stop.

Some cars with 100kwh batteries are doing 160-170 miles. Model Y only has 75 usable.

Most chargers mean unhitching, although the layouts on some mean you don’t or if they are not busy, you can just block them. For example, the expansion at Peterborough services just added 2 tow through bays, although I am sure they’ll be in use by numpties without a trailer when you want to use it because the spaces are bigger.

I just park the caravan next to the charger, I don’t mess around with parking in caravan parking or anything like that. It genuinely takes 2-3 mins to hitch up, it’s really not that big of a deal.

What I would say is the model Y doesn’t charge as quickly as other cars and as you do have to stop more often, I’d recommend the Kia/Hyundai over it. That’s also why I’m interested in the new iX3.

You can get compact caravans, Eriba is a popular one which has a pop top so it’s lower and narrower. Someone who has a 100kwh Fischer Ocean got about 190 miles towing one. For me, that’s good enough, I’d be more than satisfied with 170-180 miles range.

Edit: most caravan trips are sub 100 miles. People only tend to go further afield 1-2 times per year.

I was also chatting to someone recently who towed their caravan to the U.K. from Denmark behind their Model Y and they were touring the U.K. so clearly it’s possible.

 

[Haggisman]

If we extrapolate that 70% of the 20 million homes with access to off street parking, at an average of about 1.5 cars. That makes roughly 14 million x 1.5 cars = 21 million out of the 30 million registered cars that have access to off street parking.

Again, it comes down to the definition of "off street parking". If 25% of those are people living in flats/terraced houses with spaces which are remote from the property, then that's only 50% of the total.

While yes, in theory those parking spaces could have chargers installed, that's a big infrastructure project; it's not just a case of bolting a charger to a wall and running a couple of meters of cable to the electricity meter - it would require installing a dedicated power supply to somewhere there isn't one already, so digging up the road /car park etc. along with smart chargers to control who could use them and how much they'd pay etc.. All of that is of course possible, but it would come at a significant cost, and you'd need all of the residents/users of that parking area to agree to it and be willing to pay their share to actually make it worthwhile.

Similarly, with rented properties, you'd need landlords to agree to allow the tenant to have a charger installed. While it would be easy enough to enact legislation to force landlords to agree to this (similar to the recent Renters' Rights Bill) the argument then comes down to who pays for it? Is the tenant going to be happy to pay ~£1k to install a charger when they might only be there 6-12 months? Is the landlord going to be happy to pay ~£1k for a charger which they will see no benefit* to?

While these issues could be avoided with legislation on new developments (e.g. make it mandatory for all flats/shared parking areas to have at least 1 charging space per property), that doesn't solve the problem of the thousands (millions?) of existing "off street" parking spaces.

Even if technically speaking "the majority" of drivers would be able to switch without issue, if that majority is only just over half, then that leaves a significant "minority" of people for whom it would cause problems.



* arguably they would see a benefit since it would make their property more attractive, but the short term penny-pinching attitude of many landlords is unlikely to take that into account, especially when rental properties are already in high demand.