The anti Israel = anti semitism agenda

[Sankari]

Israel*

 

[stockhausen]

Oh look the weekly bash Israel thread.... etc., etc., etc.

Oh look, the daily bash the Left thread . . .

See what I did there?

 

[Eurofighter]

I don't like what Israel are doing. They hide behind anti sematism. But the government are cruel people.

 

[NVP]

Israel*

...how did I do that?!

 

[jsmoke]

And equally many Jews would find they had non-Jewish ancestry. For whatever that actually means. Ashkenazi jews are just Western Europeans, pretty much. Around, iirc, 800AD, there was a major wave of Jewish proselytisation and conversion of people to Judaism. And to add further twist, Palestinian ancesty is in large part Jewish people who converted to Islam in around 600-700AD. Like most race-based identity movements, it's largely misrepresentation and selectiveness. Zionism is a racial supremacy movement for Jewish people with all that comes with it. The idea of an ethnostate is deeply repulsive to me (and many Jewish people). But that's what Israel is. The knesset recently voted through (by a narrow margin but it passed) an explicit statement that Israel is for Jews. Israel has engaged in some horrendous acts based on that goal including but not limited to forcibly sterilising Black immigrants.

Racial identity movements are pernicious and appeal to our basest instincts. Jews are no different to anyone else - and thus as susceptible to such movements as the rest of us.

It's similar to our traveller communities, they keep themselves to themselves and have also been persecuted throughout Europe for hundreds of years, some of them may even have been significant people hundreds of years ago, related to or even royalty.

The Jews were once kings of the castle, the chosen people, completely justified and givers of OT mosaic law. It would have been a great time for them, they would have been prosperous, intelligent and educated, probably even joyous and happy, but they would have been rulers and kings and in perfect standing with God.

But then Jesus came with a new teaching and the Jews had a curse put apon them, essentially cast out, dispersed and left to wander the lands of Europe where they were ostracized, ridiculed, degraded, and eventually murdered. A people without a home.

Now they see themselves as back in there homeland but it's understandable that hundreds of years of ill treatment has created a desire in them to be ultra protective of their people be highly suspicious of others.

NI went though similar struggles as a new country, the state having to assert their authority over the people, just too much prejudice and favouritism already ingrained in the leaders for a smooth ride. Too much mix of church and state, the state is always secular, clinical and essentially soulless.

 

[stockhausen]

Travellers, Jews and the Northern Irish Protestants all suffering in similar ways - interesting . . .

 

[Tinders]

I say this as a muslim, Israel itself is fine,ive been and ive been well treated, i also have some good jewish friends here, and we can have good conversations on the middle east and religion. Sadly the same cant be said about the israeli govt, and some of their supporters, who will shut down any criticism. The settlers and extremists, much like some of the rent a protest lot in Gaza, just simply do not want to resolve this issue, they push each other, they feed of each other.

At the end of the day, the BDS movement is a bit pointless. Its time people had real honest conversations, the issue could be settled by the key players in the mid east, but it wont happen in most of our lifetimes sadly.

 

[ubersonic]

Democratic my left and right buttock. The "non Jewish" vote ie: Arab vote is only 20% of the entire electorate

Do you mean the Muslim vote? Because Jew and Arab aren't exclusive terms, there are plenty of Jewish Arabs in Israel.

 

[NVP]

One thing often missed in this argument is that anti Semitism is often targeted at (known/openly) non religious Jews. 'Islamophobia' isn't generally directed at non religious people from Muslim majority countries or backgrounds unless by mistake.

Hmmm...

I have regularly had anti Islamic things said to me through my life even though I am sikh, but this is apparently only by mistake. Whereas at a Jewish person it's malice, always?

forcibly sterilising Black immigrants

Mandatory contraception is not the same a forcibly sterilising except when sensationalised.

 

[eddiemcgarrigle]

Travellers, Jews and the Northern Irish Protestants all suffering in similar ways - interesting . . .

Norn' Irish Protestants? Do explain please.

 

[dowie]

Israel have been pushing their anti-isreal=anti-semitism angle quite hardcore the past couple of years.

They have publicised a new definition of antisemitism and have managed to get governments to listen.

Who is "they"?

It might help if you were more specific with regards to what you're referring to? You've made a vague mention of a definition - do you mean the IHRA definition?

If you did then FYI The IHRA != Israel, it is actually based in Germany. If you didn't then what are you referring to?

Though I guess some of "the jews" were involved in that defenition thus your use of the term "they" is rather interesting and a tad ironic here...

But... What is this agenda?

I dunno... I mean it must be a hidden one right? "They" seem to have all sorts of "agendas" AMIRITE?


(disclaimer I support a two state solution and think what Israel is doing in the West Bank with regards to settlements and theft of land is wrong, but I also think stuff like the above needs to be challenged)

 

[Gerard]

Norn' Irish Protestants? Do explain please.

This should be good:




Continue @stockhausen

 

[NVP]

Edit: in reply to @dowie

"They" was a reference to Israel, if you wish me to go deeper and say their governers/leaders just take it as implied like the rest of this threads contributors.

You are correct in your assumption and I was incorrect in my knowledge that they were based in Israel.

Thus, your insinuations after these facts are baseless and incorrect as it was ignorance of their HQ location rather than some general slur.


I am no racist sir, I am all for peace and love.

 

[dowie]

Edit: in reply to @dowie

"They" was a reference to Israel, if you wish me to go deeper and say their governers/leaders just take it as implied like the rest of this threads contributors.

You are correct in your assumption and I was incorrect in my knowledge that they were based in Israel.

Thus, your insinuations after these facts are baseless and incorrect as it was ignorance of their HQ location rather than some general slur.

The HQ location is rather irrelevant here, it was just mentioned as an aside, even if they were based in Israel the criticism still applies as it was the conflation of Israel and the IHRA that was silly and ironically potentially rather anti Semitic in itself in its implications.

(Just because an organisation is based in a country doesn't imply that country is behind it/its publications.)

You were referring to Israel and a definition "they" came up with when actually the definition was created by an international organisation with representatives from multiple countries.

 

[NVP]

At the moment I concede as sleep is much more important, however I'm sure there will be some link to Israeli lobbyists.

I do get your point. But again, it was not antisemitic (yet).

 

[NVP]

Alright then dowie, sleep has been had so I'll be coming back at you today with something to blow the whole shebang wide open! Bear with me brother.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Mandatory contraception is not the same a forcibly sterilising except when sensationalised.

I mistakenly used the word sterilisation. However, Israel forced contraception on Ethiopian women both against their will (they knew what it was) and by deception (telling some it was vitamin arrivals). These injections rendered them infertile for years, often without their knowing. It was only a demographic survey that noticed a sharp drop in conception rates amongst Black immigrants that ultimately led to the program being unearthed. You're right to correct my wording, but the action is indefensible.

 

[Caracus2k]

Hmmm...

I have regularly had anti Islamic things said to me through my life even though I am sikh, but this is apparently only by mistake. Whereas at a Jewish person it's malice, always?

I think you completely missed the point....

I very deliberately used the words 'known', 'openly' and 'mistake'.

Anti semitism can and frequently does target individuals that the perpetrators know full well are not religious Jews or even ones that partake in much of any traditional Jewish culture.

'islamophobia' however doesn't make much sense unless the perpetrator (even if by mistake) thinks the target is a practising Muslim or at least follows strong cultural practises associated with the various strains of Islam.

That's not to say that a non religious person, from a Muslim majority country, can't be the victim of more vanilla racism but then we can just call that racism without needing to resort to anything further.

 

[stockhausen]

Norn' Irish Protestants? Do explain please.

Don't ask me Guv, I didn't involve Northern Ireland . . .

. . .
NI went though similar struggles as a new country, the state having to assert their authority over the people . . .

I am absolutely certain that the Northern Irish state has always treated the Catholics entirely fairly and with the utmost respect

. . .
Anti semitism can and frequently does target individuals that the perpetrators know full well are not religious Jews or even ones that partake in much of any traditional Jewish culture.
. . .

Really? On what do you base this sweeping generalisation?

As an aside and in hopes of getting clarification, is a "Semite" someone who follows the Jewish faith or someone who can trace his ancestry back to someone who follows the Jewish faith? How does one "identify" a "Semite"?

 

[NVP]

EDIT: @Caracus2k

I was all about to fluster myself with paragraphs in response until I read your last sentence which clarifies it nicely, I simply need to ask "Why the distinction?"