The anti Israel = anti semitism agenda

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NVP said:
Alright then dowie, sleep has been had so I'll be coming back at you today with something to blow the whole shebang wide open! ;) Bear with me brother.
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@dowie
I can find nothing more than articles regarding various Israeli Lobby groups affiliated with Israeli officials
who are pushing the IHRA definition on multiple governments. Unfortunately I cannot find a source I don't consider to have some possible bias.


We know many agencies across the world throughout history have used similar tactics to push their agendas so there is plausibility, and in this case the lacking of direct "contact" from their governing body with the IHRA definition feeds the potential for the same suspicions, ironically. And having these suspicions of a countries motives is not caused by an inherent racism, history has taught us to be suspicious of dubious actions by many countries.
 
NVP said:
@dowie
I can find nothing more than articles regarding various Israeli Lobby groups affiliated with Israeli officials
who are pushing the IHRA definition on multiple governments. Unfortunately I cannot find a source I don't consider to have some possible bias.
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This is again rather vague, it isn't clear what you're actually referring to and what is the issue you're to raise in relation to it?

Multiple governments are involved in the IHRA in the first place. I don't see an issue with a general notion of Israel trying to promote a definition of anti semitism in itself.

If you've got an issue with the definition then you might well have some good arguments against it etc.. Or if there is some specific instance where you think Israel has done something underhand with regards to this then that might be interesting. But there really isn't much hear to discuss or reply to with regards to what this thread is in relation to.

Of course it can no doubt generate some general discussion about anti semitism and/or Israel etc... but the title and OP is about an apparent agenda.
 
dowie said:
This is again rather vague, it isn't clear what you're actually referring to and what is the issue you're to raise in relation to it?

Multiple governments are involved in the IHRA in the first place. I don't see an issue with a general notion of Israel trying to promote a definition of anti semitism in itself.

If you've got an issue with the definition then you might well have some good arguments against it etc.. Or if there is some specific instance where you think Israel has done something underhand with regards to this then that might be interesting. But there really isn't much hear to discuss or reply to with regards to what this thread is in relation to.

Of course it can no doubt generate some general discussion about anti semitism and/or Israel etc... but the title and OP is about an apparent agenda.
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There is no issue per say, simply curiosity of the current affairs.
It's no secret many oppose the definition of the IHRA so I didn't feel the need to clarify the particular point. And this thread wasn't initially about the disagreement with it, more the intentions of those pushing it who I related to the state of Israel rather than an independent group who may or may not be influenced by government backed lobbyists.


Edit - To simplify my standpoint: I can see the tactics in the media but I was unsure of the motives (and obviously incorrect regarding the source)

dirtychinchilla said:
It's funny that OP thinks the agenda is led by the anti-Israelis. Sorry OP, Israel created the agenda by linking their religion irrevocably to their political situation. There's no way around that.
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Say what now?
 
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NVP said:
And this thread wasn't initially about the disagreement with it, more the intentions of those pushing it who I related to the state of Israel rather than an independent group who may or may not be influenced by government backed lobbyists.


Edit - To simplify my standpoint: I can see the tactics in the media but I'm unsure of the motives (and obviously incorrect regarding the source)
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OK but this still isn't clear - what are you actually talking about specifically?

You've mentioned agendas and now tactics in the media - but you're again just making these vague claims you don't seem to be willing to substantiate with anything.

Can you not give an example?

Do I need to point out again that vague claims about Israel or Jews and "the media", agendas etc.. is a rather old anti semitic trope so it might be better to be clear about what you're talking about here.
 
Oh sorry, OK once I've put my two boys to bed I'll try dig up some BBC articles but they're always on the front page.
 
NVP said:
Oh sorry, OK once I've put my two boys to bed I'll try dig up some BBC articles but they're always on the front page.
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I don't understand what your aim is here - you're now retrospectively going to look for some negative articles about Israel, cos they're often in the news. I was assuming there was some substance to the actual OP itself, this agenda etc.. but it seems like you want to cherry pick something after making the claim?

I don't doubt that someone can go off and find news stories about Israel doing bad things etc... they've done plenty. But if you're going to go in for the whole media conspiracy thing/hidden agendas... an obvious anti semitic trope then I'd have hoped you'd have had something to base it on in the first place.
 
Why cherry picking? Surely you're expecting me to provide the articles I originally talked about? That's what I meant by dig up, not just go hunting for dirt. If there were no original articles to Stoke my curiosity then there would not be this thread, so don't over think it.
 
What I find rather strange is that if someone in England (or elsewhere outside of Israel) criticises the prevailing Israeli government he can and probably will be accused of being anti-Semitic, whereas the exact same criticism could be raised by an Israeli living in Israel and it would be considered acceptable. After all Israel does have opposition parties.
 
Belly said:
What I find rather strange is that if someone in England (or elsewhere outside of Israel) criticises the prevailing Israeli government he can and probably will be accused of being anti-Semitic
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Will they? Plenty of people criticise Israel without being accused of anti semitism. Israel is often criticised in the UK media and often the criticism is justified. I doubt many people agree with the building of and continued occupation of illegal settlements for example, or shooting/killing protestors at the border fence nor have I seen criticism of that generally labeled anti semitic.
 
Belly said:
What I find rather strange is that if someone in England (or elsewhere outside of Israel) criticises the prevailing Israeli government he can and probably will be accused of being anti-Semitic, whereas the exact same criticism could be raised by an Israeli living in Israel and it would be considered acceptable. After all Israel does have opposition parties.
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Your forgetting one key point though. The European Jews suffered centuries of oppression and murder do you think that's going to dissappear overnight, maybe the upcoming generation will forget about this overnight?

Most of the current government will have a family member that was involved in ww2, they will have been passed down the horrors of what went on. You can't just forget about these things and move on it will be deeply ingrained onto them.
 
jsmoke said:
Your forgetting one key point though. The European Jews suffered centuries of oppression and murder do you think that's going to dissappear overnight, maybe the upcoming generation will forget about this overnight?

Most of the current government will have a family member that was involved in ww2, they will have been passed down the horrors of what went on. You can't just forget about these things and move on it will be deeply ingrained onto them.
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And yet there are Jews (and organisations) who oppose Israel's policies, and actions. I'm sure those Jews also had relatives or friends who suffered.

One could argue that being the victim of brutal oppression and genocide (as a group) would help you to be more sensitive towards the suffering of others.

In any case, being anti-Israel should be distinct from being anti-Semitic, just like e.g. being opposed to Saudi doesn't necessarily mean being anti-Islam.
 
Far too much of this thread reads as an 'I'm not racist but...'

It isn't hard to criticise Israel without being antisemitic, just treat Israel the same as you do any other country. If you treat the country differently, or simply substitute Israel or zionist for jew in the usual antisemetic canard, then you're in the wrong.

It's not hard or complicated.
 
Dolph said:
Far too much of this thread reads as an 'I'm not racist but...'

It isn't hard to criticise Israel without being antisemitic, just treat Israel the same as you do any other country. If you treat the country differently, or simply substitute Israel or zionist for jew in the usual antisemetic canard, then you're in the wrong.

It's not hard or complicated.
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Not necessarily, it's very much open to debate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_and_democratic_state
 
There is a common "Whataboutery" defence of Israel suggesting that one cannot criticise the Israeli Government without criticising every other country that behaves unacceptably.

This disingenuous argument falls down on two counts:
  1. It conveniently makes the assumption that anyone criticising the Israeli Government is indifferent to what happens elsewhere in the world.
  2. It ignores the fact that Britain was largely responsible for "giving away" conquered land when the then Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour inexplicably announced to the immensely wealthy banker Baron Rothschild the British Government's "support for the establishment of a 'national home for the Jewish people' in Palestine" despite there only being a small minority Jewish population in Palestine at a time when we just happened to be involved in an existential struggle with Germany.
 
NVP said:
Please provide an example
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That’s what you were supposed to do! You’ve played off some anit Semitic tropes in here about agendas etc... yet you still haven’t been able to specify what it is exactly you’re referring to.
 
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