Cycle RAGE!!!!!

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Another day, another bike that nearly takes me down at a crossing and gets in the way on a pavement.

Still no bicycle tax, insurance or plates?

Sigh. Vehicle Excise Duty (aka "Road Tax") is emissions based. Vehicles with zero emissions pay 0% VED. Cycles produce no emissions - apart from the swearing from my mouth towards phone zombies shambling along in designated cycle lanes - ergo they pay zero VED.

I also drive and have a car, which I leave at home when I choose to cycle to work, thereby removing a car from the road, while still paying for the privilege of the option of using it.
 
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In practical terms, how would you foresee taxing cyclists and enforcing license plates working?
per gd thread on escooter blogger death, singapore are having reg plates and fines .. so we can do that for bikes
https://vulcanpost.com/667536/lta-escooter-license-singapore/ I can't see a picture of what the plates look like.


edit - reg plate picture https://www.onemotoring.com.sg/cont...hicle-types-and-registrations/E-Scooters.html
edit2 - imagine the new trade in personal plates



cyclists can do a lot of damage too running lights so equal fine seems reasonable, not all fines are set according to social harm "tax evasion ?", dropping litter attracts £50 !
 
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per gd thread on escooter blogger death, singapore are having reg plates and fines .. so we can do that for bikes
https://vulcanpost.com/667536/lta-escooter-license-singapore/ I can't see a picture of what the plates look like.


edit - reg plate picture https://www.onemotoring.com.sg/cont...hicle-types-and-registrations/E-Scooters.html
edit2 - imagine the new trade in personal plates



cyclists can do a lot of damage too running lights so equal fine seems reasonable, not all fines are set according to social harm "tax evasion ?", dropping litter attracts £50 !

You've linked to motorised scooters
 

dod

dod

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but there's always that thought, especially when, invariably, I see one doing something monumentally stupid & putting themselves at risk, why should I be thinking about his/her safety when clearly they aren't?.
Do you apply the same logic to other car drivers?
 
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cyclists can do a lot of damage too running lights so equal fine seems reasonable, not all fines are set according to social harm "tax evasion ?", dropping litter attracts £50 !

You'll be pleased to know that the fine for skipping lights is indeed the same for motorists and cyclists then :)

http://www.cyclelaw.co.uk/cycling-offences-jumping-red-lights

The punishment is also applicable to cyclists who, if caught, can be issued a Fixed Penalty Notice of £30.

Despite the potentially serious consequences, only 4% of all pedestrian injuries as a result of red light jumping have been caused by cyclists with the remaining 96% involving motor vehicles

The main issue is obviously enforcement. No police = no fines. Some areas of course have red light cameras which can't catch cyclists, which comes back to your point about registration plates.

On a bicycle, where could you put a license plate that:

i.) Would be visible from an appropriate distance
ii.) Would not get covered in dirt flicked up from the road
iii.) Would not obscure bike lights/other accessories

I take part in cycle events where you're given a number to attach to yourself and your bike. The most visible of those is the one you're supposed to pin to the back of your jersey, but that's not remotely practical/realistic in day-to-day cases. Sometimes you're given a sticker that wraps around the seat post, but that just flaps about, and if you used something sturdier (as per pro races) you get absolutely no rear visibility of the number (so useless for fixed cameras). On the front, the most common solution is a sheet of paper that you cable tie to the bars. These are also a pain due to the cabling around the bars, as well as light/camera brackets, bell fixings, etc. Then you've got the issue of lighting - car number plates obviously have to be illuminated. Doesn't seem very practical on a bike.

edit: I appreciate you've linked to how Singapore are implementing it on e-Scooters, but the geometry of a scooter is quite different to that of a bicycle, and it doesn't look like their solution would work on a bike.

Then we come on to two further practical points:

i.) How high do you think uptake of this scheme would be? You can attach any kind of fine to non-compliance that you like, some people still won't do it, and what are the chances of them being caught?
ii.) How many prosecutions do you think would reasonably benefit from this? In all of the cases that I'm aware of where a cyclist has caused significant harm, they've been tracked down pretty quickly (normally because they've come off equally badly to whatever they've hit)
 
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Recently I've been in Berlin, Amsterdam and Belgium and always ask the same questions to taxi drivers or coach drivers "What do you think of cyclists?" and in those places their answers are completely different to British idiots.
It's as though they are brought up completely different mentally where we are brought to hate.
A coach driver and taxi driver in Berlin said "Can you imagine what it would be like if all these cyclists were in cars?".
I would imagine the same would be true in London, thank whatever God that some decide to pedal or you would get nowhere.

There is so much more to it though - a typical Dutch street for instance is far more likely to be well setup for the integration of cycles, pedestrians and vehicles than the UK and as a generalisation they are taught from an early age a different approach to using bikes for transport.

Something I didn't know but apparently in the Netherlands scooters (mopeds) used to be able to use cycle lanes with certain restrictions but they are stopping it due to the number of riders who don't abide by the restrictions - actually not a bad idea if people actually did it sensibly.

Have to say so far 99% of my encounters with cyclists (and I usually pass several every day not including the ones around major urban areas) they've behaved responsibly/tried to cooperate a more typical encounter something like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc727_rLvSM

Haven't yet encountered the more obnoxious type while driving around my current routes but as before any time it gets busy it gets a bit silly.
 
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Soldato
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The main issue is obviously enforcement. No police = no fines. Some areas of course have red light cameras which can't catch cyclists, which comes back to your point about registration plates.
...
Then we come on to two further practical points:

i.) How high do you think uptake of this scheme would be? You can attach any kind of fine to non-compliance that you like, some people still won't do it, and what are the chances of them being caught?
ii.) How many prosecutions do you think would reasonably benefit from this? In all of the cases that I'm aware of where a cyclist has caused significant harm, they've been tracked down pretty quickly (normally because they've come off equally badly to whatever they've hit)

The same place you put them on an motorcycle, on the rear.
he beat me too it
The escooter example was obvioulsy to show how they have dealt with plate positioning .... a below rear saddle lip would seem appropriate, with similar responsibility like a car driver to keep it clean, an aftermarket plate holder would be developed.

Enforcements not too hard ... if you leave your bike locked up without a plate it could be confiscated .. random stops.

But - red-light cameras based on ground loops wouldn't be triggered but can the radar ones be made more sensitive ?
edit : but a motorbike will trigger the radar .. is the rear profile so much smaller for a bike ... so maybe a bike will already trigger a radar.
 
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Note that on motorcycles the plate is typically behind the rear wheel. My bike can't have mudguards fitted due to clearance issues, I guess I'd have to stop every half mile when it's raining to wipe off the plate that I've somehow managed to attach to my seat post without obscuring lights etc. Plates on seat stays are a non-starter due to the design of most bike racks.

Let's assume we can come up with a practical way of adding some kind of easily legible plate somewhere, we've now mandated that every bike has a number plate. So we're going to send out police with angle grinders to seize bikes? (they won't even investigate bike theft, and we're suddenly expected to imagine they have resources to do this?). We'd also have to have spot checks to check the frame number against the plate, to prevent cloning. I guess the tax you proposed (at what rate?) would cover the cost of all this?
 
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Note that on motorcycles the plate is typically behind the rear wheel. My bike can't have mudguards fitted due to clearance issues, I guess I'd have to stop every half mile when it's raining to wipe off the plate that I've somehow managed to attach to my seat post without obscuring lights etc. Plates on seat stays are a non-starter due to the design of most bike racks.

Let's assume we can come up with a practical way of adding some kind of easily legible plate somewhere, we've now mandated that every bike has a number plate. So we're going to send out police with angle grinders to seize bikes? (they won't even investigate bike theft, and we're suddenly expected to imagine they have resources to do this?). We'd also have to have spot checks to check the frame number against the plate, to prevent cloning. I guess the tax you proposed (at what rate?) would cover the cost of all this?

The solution is to plate the rider not the bike. You argue it isn't practical above but I don't see any practicality reasons with something like a lightweight version of a hi-viz vest.
 
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The solution is to plate the rider not the bike. You argue it isn't practical above but I don't see any practicality reasons with something like a lightweight version of a hi-viz vest.

I put my backpack on containing all my work stuff and then what? Another cover for my bag?
 
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You can't find space to attach an identifier to a bag?

And on the rare occasion that you see a police officer, and on the much rarer occasion that they're not already dealing with something much more important:

"Sorry officer, it must have fallen off/got caught on something"
 
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That's also assuming the police would even care. 86% of drivers break 20mph limits apparently, and the police admit openly to not bothering to enforce the zones. Would they care more about cycle registration?
 
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And on the rare occasion that you see a police officer, and on the much rarer occasion that they're not already dealing with something much more important:

"Sorry officer, it must have fallen off/got caught on something"

Not quite sure of your point there - just because some people flout the law doesn't mean we shouldn't have those regulations.
 
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What's the point of regulations if they're realistically not going to be enforced? (Example being my post on 20mph limits).

If it's easily flouted/not enforced the result is that you capture all of the law abiding cyclists in bureaucracy and don't actually make any meaningful difference with the people you're trying to target. So now we have a system with various layers of cost, a cumbersome method of identification and which ultimately misses the very point of its conception.
 
Man of Honour
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What's the point of regulations if they're realistically not going to be enforced? (Example being my post on 20mph limits).

If it's easily flouted/not enforced the result is that you capture all of the law abiding cyclists in bureaucracy and don't actually make any meaningful difference with the people you're trying to target. So now we have a system with various layers of cost, a cumbersome method of identification and which ultimately misses the very point of its conception.

Welcome to a large part of the highway code - still enough people are generally law abiding enough to stop it becoming chaos.
 
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