Can you be thrown out of heaven and into hell (and vice versa)

The Jehovah's Witness peeps believe only 144000 people will to heaven. So unless you're in the top 144000 humans to ever have lived, then it's not gonna be a great afterlife for you.
 
Aiden92 said:
This to me is 'soft rock.'

Show me what Led Zep or the who had to say about this pls.
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Funnily enough when Rush came out they were called Led Zeppelin plagiarists and one of their biggest influences were The Who, they even recorded one of their songs and Rush weren't known for doing other bands material..
 
[FnG]magnolia said:
ITT: Sociology students in their first term at Uni.
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Rofflay said:
Ok so prove it then, You end up with my coin toss outlook where it is 50/50 and you can never disprove or prove anything until you find out yourself. There is nothing wrong with being an Athiest, I think what you believe is not important why would it be? If anything if there is a creator then it would be more of a test to see who you really are. And influencing someone by announcing your presence takes away the doubt and ruins the entire test if one exists.


But you still run the risk of getting busted, And who is to say there will be a hell? Would hell not be dying and nothing afterwards? Conpared to maybe something? And if you think that is impossible revert to the who created god question, Absoloutely anything seems possible we live in a crazy universe where things just pop into existence from no where.
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It seems I was optimistic.
 
Rofflay said:
Ok so prove it then, You end up with my coin toss outlook where it is 50/50 and you can never disprove or prove anything until you find out yourself. There is nothing wrong with being an Athiest, I think what you believe is not important why would it be? If anything if there is a creator then it would be more of a test to see who you really are. And influencing someone by announcing your presence takes away the doubt and ruins the entire test if one exists.


But you still run the risk of getting busted, And who is to say there will be a hell? Would hell not be dying and nothing afterwards? Conpared to maybe something? And if you think that is impossible revert to the who created god question, Absoloutely anything seems possible we live in a crazy universe where things just pop into existence from no where.
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Unless you can first prove God exists we can dismiss any notion of heaven and hell as nothing but baseless assertions.

Even then you'd still have to prove that souls exist, but I think you've got enough on your plate with the above challenge.

Good luck!
 
Malevolence said:
I still maintain it was all thought up by a group of iron age stoners, sat around a fire in the middle of the desert tripping their balls off on mushrooms and weed thinking of ways to wreck people's heads in the future.
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One one of the times I took hallucinogens, I received a Revelation. Capital 'r', because it was that important. I learned the secrets of the universe, or at least some of them. A higher level of understanding had been revealed to me. When the person who wasn't on anything came to check on me I was delighted to explain it to them. This was beautiful and important knowledge to be shared to everyone!

It was babble. The moving pink shapes on the wall that had been the instrument of my enlightenment weren't even there. I was talking nonsense. But I knew it was enlightenment and truth. Had I been a particularly charismatic person and skilled orator, I might have made converts and started a cult. If I was politically skilled enough, I might have turned that cult into a religion. There's a powerful drive in humans to have answers and to feel a sense of belonging.

The "constellations" thing is another example. Those things are not real, not even in the sense of being the claimed shapes even just view from Earth and even if you pick and choose stars to try to make them fit.
 
Rofflay said:
Wishful indeed what happens if i am wrong? That means people will face no consquences on thier lives, It also means my coin toss outlook (afterlife/nothing) is basically just nothing then. Because such a system would provably just be an oraganic recycler and life creator there would be no morality or intelligence.
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That would be true only if there were only two possibilities - either the religion you choose is right or there are no gods. That's a false dichotomy. What if the true religion was one of those destroyed by Christianity? In that case, the gods would probably be more displeased with you than with an atheist. Or what if it was one of the many variations of Christianity other than Catholicism, especially one of those destroyed by Catholicism as heresy? Throwing your lot in with Catholicism would leave you worse off again.

The reason i have the view i do is, I look around and see things like intellgent design and i think i can be no fluke.
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Circular reasoning. You interpret your god into the universe because you believe in your god and then claim that as evidence of your god. Obviously circular reasoning. You do not see intelligent design. You interpret it into what you see. And then you interpret your god into it. There are as many creation stories as there are religions - even if some god or gods had done the designing, what evidence do you have that it was yours?

And if it was well you would also be removing one of the biggest security nets society has, Morality.
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No, you wouldn't. Religion is not morality. Religion is amoral. Morality is about doing what is right, regardless of what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told, regardless of what is right. Do you regard slavery as moral? Do you regard mass murder as moral? Do you regard torturing people to death as moral? All those things can be, have been and in some cases still are being done as part of religion. There is no morality in religion, only obedience.

Just think about the things you cam do in life without morality and no consequences, It would be a hell hole and murder would be an accepted daily part of justice and life.
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Which is one of the reasons I am opposed to religion.

EDIT: I could have saved a bit of time by referring to the fact that your position has been proposed many times before and is most famously (at least in this part of the world) referred to as "Pascal's Wager". You can easily find out why it's wrong by searching for that term.
 
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Rofflay said:
Wishful indeed what happens if i am wrong? That means people will face no consquences on thier lives, It also means my coin toss outlook (afterlife/nothing) is basically just nothing then. Because such a system would provably just be an oraganic recycler and life creator there would be no morality or intelligence.

The reason i have the view i do is, I look around and see things like intellgent design and i think i can be no fluke. And if it was well you would also be removing one of the biggest security nets society has, Morality.


Just think about the things you cam do in life without morality and no consequences, It would be a hell hole and murder would be an accepted daily part of justice and life.
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if you need religion to give you morality then you have a big problem.
 
Angilion said:
That would be true only if there were only two possibilities - either the religion you choose is right or there are no gods. That's a false dichotomy. What if the true religion was one of those destroyed by Christianity? In that case, the gods would probably be more displeased with you than with an atheist. Or what if it was one of the many variations of Christianity other than Catholicism, especially one of those destroyed by Catholicism as heresy? Throwing your lot in with Catholicism would leave you worse off again.



Circular reasoning. You interpret your god into the universe because you believe in your god and then claim that as evidence of your god. Obviously circular reasoning. You do not see intelligent design. You interpret it into what you see. And then you interpret your god into it. There are as many creation stories as there are religions - even if some god or gods had done the designing, what evidence do you have that it was yours?



No, you wouldn't. Religion is not morality. Religion is amoral. Morality is about doing what is right, regardless of what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told, regardless of what is right. Do you regard slavery as moral? Do you regard mass murder as moral? Do you regard torturing people to death as moral? All those things can be, have been and in some cases still are being done as part of religion. There is no morality in religion, only obedience.



Which is one of the reasons I am opposed to religion.

EDIT: I could have saved a bit of time by referring to the fact that your position has been proposed many times before and is most famously (at least in this part of the world) referred to as "Pascal's Wager". You can easily find out why it's wrong by searching for that term.
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That is not quite what i said really i said i just think something exists, And that all religion is man made theory. So i said i do not think if God existed he would care what you believed and would care more about who you were and are now.


So then the coin toss would be that if God exists and you believe you have a chance of life after death somehow, But if he does not then well there is nothing and i call that a loss because if you are an Athiest your chances might go down to 0%? So yea i think personally it is 50/50. But Pascal argues that for an Athiest there would be torment if God did exist where as i simply have it as nothing and nothing. Out of the four boxes they would all be nothing only belief in god and god exists would be where i would put down life after death. Indeed i do not even believe in hell either i said i think hell is just nothing in my opinion.


So where is this disproved then? Because i have a slighty different belief than him indeed his work was probably heavily skewed by Christianity hence why he said Athiests will be in trouble if God exists.
 
I believe that humans (or if there is a nuclear war or meteorite) aliens will advance technologically so that they can bring people back to life from the past with their memories intact. So if you die it will seem instant yet a long time has passed and you will be brought back to life.

They will be able to fix all the evil in people (cruelty) and everyone will live in space (heaven). So there will be no hell. Peoplr will be genetically engineered so they can have wings and halos or whatever they want.

Hope you dont end up ressirected somewhere horrible in the universe because maybe that is hell.

Anyway be good so it happens and the future is good. Or maybe you will end up dead forever or in hell.

That's my scifi idea of heaven and hell.
 
morbid42 said:
Societies change, laws change, religions change.

What was once a sin is now accepted. What was once accepted is now a sin.
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Moral relativism is the view that moral judgements are true or false only relative to some particular standpoint (for instance, that of a culture or a historical period).

Societies, laws and religions do change over time. This is true.

We do not get our morals from scripture. Man in this form (homosapien) is estimated to be 150,000 years old. Altruism would be necessary and impacts on evolution. Where there was man there was societies, law, morals and religions. The golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated yourself, was published ~500BC before the current mainstream religions.

That the religious may claim to have expertise in morality but perform evil demonstrates that they are no different from the rest of us. For instance e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferns_Report#Findings

Now science can tell us what is best for individuals and mankind.

The fact that religions change shows that they are man-made. We all no longer believe in Jupiter and Mars. Dawkins “We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.” Dawkins also points out there is homosexual and bisexual behaviour observable in animals too.

 
edscdk said:
The one true religion is science
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Well said.

However, science is not based on faith - it is the search for what is false.

If scientists prove something it becomes a fact; and if what the scientists first believed was a fact is disproved they immediately change their minds and accept that as the new fact. If they didn't they would be 'bad scientists'.

In contrast, religions are dark age, man-made and relatively unchanging. Even though we have landed a satellite on a piece of the old universe, discovered evolution which is now proven, religions do not to change their views like scientists do.
 
The question can be interpreted as:

If someone lets you into their house, can they throw you out? And if they throw you out, can they let you back in again?
 
Rofflay said:
The reason i have the view i do is, I look around and see things like intellgent design and i think i can be no fluke. And if it was well you would also be removing one of the biggest security nets society has, Morality.
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Pretty crappy design when not even 0.0000000001% of our solar system is habitable let alone the rest of the universe.. (i made up the number of 0s but we only have like 20% of the surface of the earth to live on pretty much any other location in the universe will kill you)
 
Rofflay said:
That is not quite what i said really i said i just think something exists, And that all religion is man made theory. So i said i do not think if God existed he would care what you believed and would care more about who you were and are now.


So then the coin toss would be that if God exists and you believe you have a chance of life after death somehow, But if he does not then well there is nothing and i call that a loss because if you are an Athiest your chances might go down to 0%? So yea i think personally it is 50/50. But Pascal argues that for an Athiest there would be torment if God did exist where as i simply have it as nothing and nothing. Out of the four boxes they would all be nothing only belief in god and god exists would be where i would put down life after death. Indeed i do not even believe in hell either i said i think hell is just nothing in my opinion.


So where is this disproved then? Because i have a slighty different belief than him indeed his work was probably heavily skewed by Christianity hence why he said Athiests will be in trouble if God exists.
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Why would anyone want to spend an eternity in heaven with a God who forgives pure evil, but rejects those loving, caring, decent people who simply deny his existence?
 
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