Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

Jono8 said:
I'm not avoiding or deflecting anything.
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You literally are though, yet again I get a reply with no clarification, you just deflect to being vauge... this time it's a general agreement with the prosecution.

You also seem to have this presumption that you are 100% correct and that YOU are a reasonable person.
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No, I'm not presuming that I'm 100% correct, I'm open to change, however, yes I believe my current views are correct if I didn't believe that then why would I hold them? I don't think it's reasonable to repeatedly make assertions you are unable to back up or make arguments in support of... if when asked why you believe something or why you're making an assertion your response is to just deflect/avoid then you don't really have a very good position.
 
Jono8 said:
Who is defending him? He was obviously a horrible person.

That isn't relevant to the case though.
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C Kent said:
So how much further should he have retreated considering nothing was deterring rosenbaum? 10 more meters, 20, 100? just carried on until he was caught and had the snot kicked out of him or potentially lost his life? What's reasonable in your opinion?
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dowie said:
You literally are though, yet again I get a reply with no clarification, you just deflect to being vauge... this time it's a general agreement with the prosecution.
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Ive already pointed out plenty of specific points/times where i agreed with the prosecution. For example, its obvious by the current back and forth above that I agree with there point about him being able to retreat further, and this translates to the jury instructions on retreating (quoted earlier).



dowie said:
No, I'm not presuming that I'm 100% correct, I'm open to change, however, yes I believe my current views are correct if I didn't believe that then why would I hold them? I don't think it's reasonable to repeatedly make assertions you are unable to back up or make arguments in support of... if when asked why you believe something or why you're making an assertion your response is to just deflect/avoid then you don't really have a very good position.
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I have backed up my assertions. You just keep calling them "dubious", or asking me the same thing repeatedly which i have already gone over.
 
Jono8 said:
A. Kyle did not know his criminal history so its irrelevant
B. The force to which Rosenbaum may have "assaulted" Kyle, whether he wanted to take his gun and whether he was going to murder him is entirely conjecture.

The only "fact" and provable action that Rosenbaum took, was to chase him.
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That's simply false - we have additional facts too - the fact that Rosenbaum continued to chase him even after Kyle turned and pointed a rifle, the fact that Rosenbaum was clearly agitated/angry on earlier footage shot that night - he was the obvious trouble maker, the fact there was residue left on his had/that we have evidence he grabbed Kyle's rifle.

You've stated:
There is absolutely a good argument to be made for why deadly force was not necessarily reasonable in this situation.

Yet when asked, you can't seem to give one, you just deflect/avoid and go into vague statements about believing the prosecutors etc..

Jono8 said:
I have backed up my assertions. You just keep calling them "dubious", or asking me the same thing repeatedly which i have already gone over.
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You haven't though, you've replied to me several times in a row deliberately avoiding doing any such thing... the standard deflection you've done all through this thread.

Why not just answer?
 
C Kent said:
So how much further should he have retreated considering nothing was deterring rosenbaum? 10 more meters, 20, 100? just carried on until he was caught and had the snot kicked out of him or potentially lost his life? What's reasonable in your opinion?
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Maybe until he reasonably could have run no more/got cornered? Its clear from the video he still could have kept running.
 
Jono8 said:
Maybe until he reasonably could have run no more/got cornered? Its clear from the video he still could have kept running.
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OK suppose that were true, for the sake of argument... then suppose he gets caught in a spot 50 meters away... then what? Is it still unreasonable to shoot - assume all other actions are the same just the running part you're objecting to has been exhausted?
 
dowie said:
That's simply false - we have additional facts too - the fact that Rosenbaum continued to chase him even after Kyle turned and pointed a rifle, the fact that Rosenbaum was clearly agitated/angry on earlier footage shot that night - he was the obvious trouble maker, the fact there was residue left on his had/that we have evidence he grabbed Kyle's rifle.
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A.) It isn't false at all.
B.) The residue on his hand does not confirm he actually grabbed the barrel.

dowie said:
You've stated:
There is absolutely a good argument to be made for why deadly force was not necessarily reasonable in this situation.

Yet when asked, you can't seem to give one, you just deflect/avoid and go into vague statements about believing the prosecutors etc..
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You clearly have a problem with the following the arguments you come in and weigh on in here. I specifically outlined my reasons for thinking so within today's posting (sighting how he only retreated a small amount before turning and killing him and providing the jury instructions which could infer guilt due to that).
 
dowie said:
OK suppose that were true, for the sake of argument...
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We dont need to suppose it. It clearly is true.


dowie said:
then suppose he gets caught in a spot 50 meters away... then what? Is it still unreasonable to shoot - assume all other actions are the same just the running part you're objecting to has been exhausted?
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That would depend on the situation/what Rosenbaum does. If Kyle was actually genuinally cornered (ie didn't just decide to turn and aim his rifle at Rosenbaum after a relatively small chase), and Rosenbaum did clearly attack him then i would be more sympathetic to the force used.

In the ACTUAL situation we have Rosenbaum chasing him and then Kyle stopping/turning and shooting him 4 times as he falls, before Rosenbaum even lays a hand on him. I don't think reasonable force was used.
 
Jono8 said:
A.) It isn't false at all.
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your claim: "The only "fact" and provable action that Rosenbaum took, was to chase him."

Clearly is false given I've literally just cited other facts. Note you're not denying the presence of forensic evidence re: his hand?

B.) The residue on his hand does not confirm he actually grabbed the barrel.
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Hmmm that's a reach. It's pretty strong evidence - Kyle stated he grabbed, it, the forensics back that up with the residue on his hand, the main witness/journalist nearby backs up the claim that he lunged at Kyle... Do you think his hand accidentally fell and wrapped itself around the end of the barrel then?

You clearly have a problem with the following the arguments you come in and weigh on in here. I specifically outlined my reasons for thinking so within today's posting (sighting how he only retreated a small amount before turning and killing him and providing the jury instructions which could infer guilt due to that).
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You just deflect/avoid answering all through the thread. Is it just the retreating aspect that concerns you then?
 
Jono8 said:
That would depend on the situation/what Rosenbaum does.
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Already specified in the question, everything else the same just removing your objection re: not fleeing enough.

In the ACTUAL situation we have Rosenbaum chasing him and then Kyle stopping/turning and shooting him 4 times as he falls, before Rosenbaum even lays a hand on him. I don't think reasonable force was used.
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Again though - WHY?

If we're assuming he's exhausted the fleeing option then what is the argument? You're again just making an assertion - are you really not able to say " I believe X because..." and then actually give an argument?
 
Jono8 said:
Maybe until he reasonably could have run no more/got cornered? Its clear from the video he still could have kept running.
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The moment he turned around there was less than 2 meters between him and Rosenbaum, which is why Rosenbaum lunged, at most he could maybe have run for another few meters tops..
 
dowie said:
Already specified in the question, everything else the same just removing your objection re: not fleeing enough.



Again though - WHY?

If we're assuming he's exhausted the fleeing option then what is the argument? You're again just making an assertion - are you really not able to say " I believe X because..." and then actually give an argument?
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the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that Jono doesn't believe Rittenhouse acted in self defence
 
C Kent said:
the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that Jono doesn't believe Rittenhouse acted in self defence
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That seems to be the case, he's made similar statements that lead to that conclusion too, it's just that when questioned on it he won't answer - you just see him going into deflection/avoidance mode.
 
200sols said:
He'd made his mind up right at the very start that Kyle must have provoked them, you wont change his mind now.
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Spends an entire thread defending a child abusing racist who tried to assault a kid lmao

https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/03/12/kenosha-shooting/

Rosenbaum also had open misdemeanor cases for battery (domestic abuse) and disorderly conduct (domestic abuse).

Newly released documents obtained by Wisconsin Right Now from the Pima County (Arizona) Clerk of Courts confirm Rosenbaum was charged by a grand jury with 11 counts of child molestation and inappropriate sexual activity with children, including anal rape. The victims were five boys ranging in age from nine to 11 years old.
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https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials...-african-american-man-who-was-shot-by-police/

CHIRAFISI: When [Rosenbaum’s] on the corner of 59th and Sheridan, he’s yelling “shoot me,” and then he uses the n-word?

LACKOWSKI: Yes.

CHIRAFISI: So, he’s saying “shoot me, n-word; shoot me, n-word”?

LACKOWSKI: Yes.
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References by the way.

Is there anyone they won't defend against perceived Trump supporters?
 
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