Australian Grand Prix 2016, Melbourne - Race 1/21

JRS · 20 Mar 2016 at 19:42

I'm trying to think of any other racing series worldwide that allow work to be done on the cars during a red flag. And I'm drawing a blank, beyond the few scenarios left in the NASCAR non-points races (the Shootout at Daytona and the All-Star at Charlotte).

Unless I'm well out of the loop, and it's near-universal. If that's the case then it's a damned shame because it ruins races.

Skeeter · 20 Mar 2016 at 19:44

Bug One said:
Do these people also say Torro Rosso cheat by being a Red Bull B team?

No. Although people do still claim that Toro Rosso are cheats, but for different reasons.

As Setroc said, the Ferrari/Haas relationship was a new and unique setup that we haven't seen before.

My point is while some call it cheating, I think it's a good thing. A grid full of A and B Teams would be a higher overall standard than some of the dross F1 is dragging around with it at the moment.

Skeeter · 20 Mar 2016 at 19:47

JRS said:
I'm trying to think of any other racing series worldwide that allow work to be done on the cars during a red flag. And I'm drawing a blank, beyond the few scenarios left in the NASCAR non-points races (the Shootout at Daytona and the All-Star at Charlotte).

Unless I'm well out of the loop, and it's near-universal. If that's the case then it's damned shame because it ruins races.

Pretty much any series allows you to change whatever you want (within regulations) once the lights go out, especially in the pit lane.

Edit: just checked on the FIA regulations site. F1 allows cars to be worked on, WEC doesn't except for ERS cooling and tyres if the weather changes, WTCC allows changes like F1, Formula E allows changes, Formula 3 allows changes, and then I got bored.

Basically it looks like most FIA series allow it, except WEC which has super strict rules on work and marshalling anyway. So F1 is hardly the race ruining exception.

smr · 20 Mar 2016 at 20:36

I cant understand why they cant just change the rules to disallow changes under red flag.

The most prominent other example which springs to mind is the monaco gp where the race was red flagged 10 laps before the end depriving us of what would have been a thrilling climax.

The_Abyss · 20 Mar 2016 at 21:10

smr said:
McLaren threw a points finish away by bad tyre strategy for Jenson then.

No, they're still just slower than everyone else. Hugely disappointing but let's not brush it under the carpet of 'strategy mistakes'.

V F · 20 Mar 2016 at 21:24

smr said:
i've finally realised why they boooed him, not that I was giving it much thought... wow they hold a grudge don't they - thought everyone had stopped booing Seb by now.

Skeeter · 20 Mar 2016 at 23:47

smr said:
I cant understand why they cant just change the rules to disallow changes under red flag.

The most prominent other example which springs to mind is the monaco gp where the race was red flagged 10 laps before the end depriving us of what would have been a thrilling climax.

Peoples views on the rule are highly swayed by circumstance.

Let's change the rule to ban changes, then have a massive crash where Button loses his front wing but carries on, and the race gets red flagged. You'd be crying that the rules should allow changes the moment it happened, and scream about how it was unfair when Buttton gets forced to restart with no front wing.

There's no perfect solution. Sometimes a red flag ruins a race, some times it makes it better, just like Safety Cars do. Plus you have to allow tyre changes as most red flags are the result of weather changes.

JRS · 20 Mar 2016 at 23:47

Skeeter said:
Pretty much any series allows you to change whatever you want (within regulations) once the lights go out, especially in the pit lane.

Edit: just checked on the FIA regulations site. F1 allows cars to be worked on, WEC doesn't except for ERS cooling and tyres if the weather changes, WTCC allows changes like F1, Formula E allows changes, Formula 3 allows changes, and then I got bored.

So it is near-universal, and I am out of the loop. Hey ho

Skeeter said:
Basically it looks like most FIA series allow it, except WEC which has super strict rules on work and marshalling anyway. So F1 is hardly the race ruining exception.

That's still not a good thing

MissChief · 20 Mar 2016 at 23:48

Skeeter said:
Pretty much any series allows you to change whatever you want (within regulations) once the lights go out, especially in the pit lane.

Edit: just checked on the FIA regulations site. F1 allows cars to be worked on, WEC doesn't except for ERS cooling and tyres if the weather changes, WTCC allows changes like F1, Formula E allows changes, Formula 3 allows changes, and then I got bored.

Basically it looks like most FIA series allow it, except WEC which has super strict rules on work and marshalling anyway. So F1 is hardly the race ruining exception.

I remember the race in Monaco a few years ago when Vettel (I think) was on tyres that were several dozen laps old and every one was queuing up behind him on much newer tyres and they came across several other cars fighting for position. Needless to say the cars in front had a coming together, red flag came out and Vettel was allowed to change his tyres, ruining a potentially excellent last few laps. Tyres shouldn't be allowed to be changed unless it's for wet/intermediates in the case of a Red Flagged race. IMO

drunkenmaster · 21 Mar 2016 at 01:28

It should be pointed out that had they not been allowed to change tires under the red flag Hamilton would have won, being the only lead driver on medium tires everyone would have pitted and ended up behind him. Vettel was further ahead of Hamilton than any of the others and came out 10 seconds down on him. Rosberg once clear of Vettel might well have done a few very fast laps then pitted and come out between Hamilton and Vettel.... so aside from switching Ham/Rosberg around, very little was ruined by tire changes under the red flag.

this_is_gav · 21 Mar 2016 at 09:10

smr said:
i've finally realised why they boooed him, not that I was giving it much thought... wow they hold a grudge don't they - thought everyone had stopped booing Seb by now.

It's probably more his past with Webber that bothers/bothered the Aussies.

Shimmy · 21 Mar 2016 at 11:35

MooMoo444 · 21 Mar 2016 at 11:36

Can't be that lucky, he's driving a Honda engine.

floatindolphin · 21 Mar 2016 at 11:47

Is that his helmet hanging out? (as it were!?)

El_Watcher · 21 Mar 2016 at 12:10

Skeeter said:
Let's change the rule to ban changes, then have a massive crash where Button loses his front wing but carries on, and the race gets red flagged. You'd be crying that the rules should allow changes the moment it happened, and scream about how it was unfair when Buttton gets forced to restart with no front wing.

Simple way to fix that. You say to teams that if they want to change anything, they can but they will be moved to the back of the queue of cars, just like anyone who changes anything between qualifying and the race.
If the race had not been red flagged, Button would still have lost time by pitting anyway, so this way I see a fair result.
I am sure there are enough FIA officials in the pit lane to watch the cars. Even if there was worry about tyre damage due to running over carbon fibre shards, an FIA official could check each tyre for damage, and then allow tyre changes with or without penalty.

Skeeter said:
Plus you have to allow tyre changes as most red flags are the result of weather changes.

Do you have any statistics for that, because I would be surprised considering how few wet races we see each year?

MooMoo444 · 21 Mar 2016 at 12:15

El_Watcher said:
Simple way to fix that. You say to teams that if they want to change anything, they can but they will be moved to the back of the queue of cars

The logistics wouldn't work. If a red flag happened and 20 drivers wanted to change something, how do you decide the order? Who makes the change first? How do you track it?

smr · 21 Mar 2016 at 12:28

Have their been red flags where the cars involved in causing it were able to carry on anyway? If so, allow them to make changes - any cars damaged which result in the red flag but the other cars aren't allowed to be changed - why wouldn't that work?

this_is_gav · 21 Mar 2016 at 12:43

smr said:
Have their been red flags where the cars involved in causing it were able to carry on anyway? If so, allow them to make changes - any cars damaged which result in the red flag but the other cars aren't allowed to be changed - why wouldn't that work?

Hamilton in Monaco back in 2011 is the recent example that comes to mind, where the changed they were rushing to change his rear-wing end plates (the race MissChief mentioned above).

It all depends on the level of damage. Prior to spare cars (or T-cars) being banned it would normally be the case that you'd have to jump in the spare, but you could only do that if two laps hadn't been completed when the red was thrown. In the big pile up in Spa in 1998 there were some teams where both cars were damaged beyond immediate repair and four drivers had to sit out the restart. Obviously that's irrelevant now.

El_Watcher · 21 Mar 2016 at 12:47

MooMoo444 said:
The logistics wouldn't work. If a red flag happened and 20 drivers wanted to change something, how do you decide the order? Who makes the change first? How do you track it?

You move them in the order that they currently are.

Say there are ten cars left at the red flag.
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J
3rd (C), 6th (F) and 7th (G) want to change something.
The order then becomes
A, B, D, E, H, I, J, C, F, G

It is hardly rocket science, as the cars are stationary, in-line, in the pits. You just give them a set time (say 5 minutes from the point where everyone is in the pits) to decide whether to change something. If you then change something after this time, you go right to the back.

If the red flag is due to weather, Charlie Whiting can just declare a "wet race" as he does currently, and everyone has to change tyres.
If teams want to change anything else other than tyres, then the rules above happen.

Dave M · 21 Mar 2016 at 13:20

tbh there's no argument to re-instating parc-ferme rules during a red flag that you couldn't work around with more rules.

But there are plenty of other scenarios. What if you were running around on super softs and were planning on coming in after a few laps - you might lose 1 or 2 places due to the gap you've built on those tyres and come out in clear air.

Now you need to change at the red flag, go to the back and in a horrendous queue of traffic - race destroyed.

What if they calculate a pit-stop and only put you back that many places (based on timings before the incident)? How do you know they were planning on coming in and aren't just blagging a 'free' stop, certainly if you were planning on coming in at all before the end of the race it would make sense to change under the red flag and lose some places because coming in for a pit-stop after the field has been bunched up again will be a traffic nightmare.

I guess in that scenario, most would have changed and been pushed back some places, Hamilton may have decided to stick and be at the front, but he'd be on old mediums with fast cars right behind him on new mediums or softs, would he have held on?

I guess in the era of tweaking rules to 'spice things up' in what is becoming a predictable series that's no worse than anything else but it won't make everyone happy.

I seriously do think leaving the rules for a while and removing most of the development restrictions is the best way - the teams who are behind will catch up eventually simply because they have more room to improve. It would certainly help the spectacle if the renault teams and mclaren had been able to catch-up.