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The Pascal GTX 1070 Owners Thread

Man of Honour
Joined
12 Jul 2005
Posts
20,535
Location
Aberlour, NE Scotland
I've plumped for the Inno3D iChill X3 GTX 1070 , there don't seem to be many reviews about and this one wasn't on any list when I was looking. Google translate seems to do a less than stellar job of Romanian but there are teardown pictures which I didn't find elsewhere and then pretty graphs benching it against other custom 1070s.
Roll on 4pm and DPD...

Got the same card on the way to me. Couldn't pass on that price. Unlike a lot of the other card it has a factory overclock on the memory as well. That's the second tear down I have seen of the card and both have had way too much thermal paste on the core. Just have to wait until Tuesday for it to arrive now.
 
Soldato
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Posts
12,031
I have the Palit Dual 1070, the one that was on special offer a few weeks ago.

Has anyone here overclocked theirs at all? Just wondering what kind of overclocks you are getting. I use the thundermaster program that comes with the card.

I upped the power target to 112% (highest it can go, is there any harm at leaving it at this?)
Core clock +114 (now 1620 from 1506)
Memory clock +114 (now 4118 from 4004)

IT runs perfectly at these settings and very cool and quiet. Can I afford to raise the clocks much more?
 
Man of Honour
Joined
13 Oct 2006
Posts
91,171
I have the Palit Dual 1070, the one that was on special offer a few weeks ago.

Has anyone here overclocked theirs at all? Just wondering what kind of overclocks you are getting. I use the thundermaster program that comes with the card.

I upped the power target to 112% (highest it can go, is there any harm at leaving it at this?)
Core clock +114 (now 1620 from 1506)
Memory clock +114 (now 4118 from 4004)

IT runs perfectly at these settings and very cool and quiet. Can I afford to raise the clocks much more?

I haven't extensively tested it but in a very quick test I had it running at 2100MHz/8500MHz fine with only a slight voltage bump.

Sometimes it drops back a bit due to vrel or power to around 2020 ish and nothing I can do about that even with 112% PT.
 
Soldato
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Posts
12,031
Seems a bit odd. Mine is a reference card made by Nvidia if that makes a difference ?

Could be, I don't know. It makes about as much sense as anything else :)

I haven't extensively tested it but in a very quick test I had it running at 2100MHz/8500MHz fine with only a slight voltage bump.

Sometimes it drops back a bit due to vrel or power to around 2020 ish and nothing I can do about that even with 112% PT.

2100 core and 8500 memory.

That means +600 on the core and +500 on the memory clock? Or am I reading things wrong. I am currently on +200 core and +400 memory and worried :p

Another question if read the core and memory clocks in Thundermaster it lists my core clock as 1706. But when I run any of the 3Dmark benchs and look at the details, it shows my core clock as 2088. Why?

And last question for today, can you load up thundermaster and see what your memory clock is. Mine says 4004Ghz default. Shouldn't it be 8000Mhz? GPUz says the default memory clock is 2002Mhz. Afterburner says it 4000Mhz default.

Is there a fault? Just want to make sure my card is running ok.
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
13 Oct 2006
Posts
91,171
1506 is the base clock - in games it will be boosting to somewhere between 1700-2000 depending on the quality of the core - most of the Palit dual fan ones so far seem to boost to 1911MHz out the box. So no not +600 on the core :p exactly what increase will depend on what clocks your card is configured for.

2000, 4000 and 8000 are all correct though 4000 is wrongly being used really - the memory clock is 2000MHz but it does multiple operations per clock cycle giving an effective 8000MHz.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
19 Dec 2010
Posts
12,031
Ok, that explains the memory numbers, thanks, Just panicking a little here!!:)

As for the overclocking, you have left your core at the default? Or what have you added to the core to get 2100Mhz as boost figures. My core is currently at 1720, but only boosts to around 1950.
 
Man of Honour
OP
Joined
21 May 2012
Posts
31,940
Location
Dalek flagship
Welcome and on TROH.:)

The Roll of Honour.

Ft2xaoP.jpg


Date 07/08/2016, Make Asus Strix, Scougar, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make KFA2 Reference, pulsemyne, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Scramz, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, melmac, Link
Date 01/08/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Rom, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Inno3D Founders Edition, MOOGLEYS, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Palit Jetstream, Ogi, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, NinjaCool, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, Bishie, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, heatonpkmassive, Link
Date 28/07/2016, Make Zotac Founders Edition, _Jimlad_, Link
Date 27/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Ex3cut3r, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Aretak, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Defiant306, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, C6ckneyGeezer, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Bickaxe, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, MeatLoaf, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Palit Super Jetstream, Troop, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Asus Founders Edition, ah9098, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Kaapstad, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, clone, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Gripen90, Link
Date 19/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, XeNoNF50, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 HOF, Solidair, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Amatsubu, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Jono8, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Edition, Raikiri, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, tommybhoy, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, TNA, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, Darren_uk, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Troezar, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mario, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, MarkeR, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gigabyte Windforce 2x, wellibob, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, roddypoddy, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, chrcoluk, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, JTrickle, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, gtw1212, Link
Date 07/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, magicoi, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, Amatyr, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, divinebeetle, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, i_am_jon, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, Phil87, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, V_R, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, foxyfaefife, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, chris-82, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, razorpakk, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, styuR, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Shawreyboy, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, Gripen90, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, shrek2, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, thefogo, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Carta, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Charlatan, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Daaaveee, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Aretak, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Inno3D iChiLL X3 Edition, leerogers00, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, DougF1, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, markoboyo11, Link
Date 27/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mangochutney, Link
Date 25/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 23/06/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, McGraw, Link
Date 22/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, smithy83, Link
Date 21/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Phixsator, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Paul_cz, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, Dave2150, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AthlonXP1800, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, w00dy85, Link
Date 19/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, kully1972, Link
Date 18/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AliGoz, Link
Date 17/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, philo-sofa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Biffa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Daaaveee, Link
Date 14/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, mankycrack, Link
Date 13/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, !bluetonic!, Link
Date 12/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, yoyo59, Link
Date 11/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, JamesM, Link



To get on the Roll of Honour all you have to do is post a pic with your user name on it of your GTX 1070.​
 
Associate
Joined
25 Mar 2003
Posts
1,878
Location
Scotland
Got it :)

mine.jpg
 
Man of Honour
OP
Joined
21 May 2012
Posts
31,940
Location
Dalek flagship
Welcome and on TROH.:)

The Roll of Honour.

Ft2xaoP.jpg


Date 07/08/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, dunno, Link
Date 07/08/2016, Make Asus Strix, Scougar, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make KFA2 Reference, pulsemyne, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Scramz, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, melmac, Link
Date 01/08/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Rom, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Inno3D Founders Edition, MOOGLEYS, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Palit Jetstream, Ogi, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, NinjaCool, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, Bishie, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, heatonpkmassive, Link
Date 28/07/2016, Make Zotac Founders Edition, _Jimlad_, Link
Date 27/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Ex3cut3r, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Aretak, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Defiant306, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, C6ckneyGeezer, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Bickaxe, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, MeatLoaf, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Palit Super Jetstream, Troop, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Asus Founders Edition, ah9098, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Kaapstad, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, clone, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Gripen90, Link
Date 19/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, XeNoNF50, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 HOF, Solidair, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Amatsubu, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Jono8, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Edition, Raikiri, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, tommybhoy, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, TNA, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, Darren_uk, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Troezar, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mario, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, MarkeR, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gigabyte Windforce 2x, wellibob, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, roddypoddy, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, chrcoluk, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, JTrickle, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, gtw1212, Link
Date 07/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, magicoi, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, Amatyr, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, divinebeetle, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, i_am_jon, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, Phil87, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, V_R, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, foxyfaefife, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, chris-82, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, razorpakk, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, styuR, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Shawreyboy, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, Gripen90, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, shrek2, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, thefogo, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Carta, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Charlatan, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Daaaveee, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Aretak, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Inno3D iChiLL X3 Edition, leerogers00, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, DougF1, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, markoboyo11, Link
Date 27/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mangochutney, Link
Date 25/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 23/06/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, McGraw, Link
Date 22/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, smithy83, Link
Date 21/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Phixsator, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Paul_cz, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, Dave2150, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AthlonXP1800, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, w00dy85, Link
Date 19/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, kully1972, Link
Date 18/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AliGoz, Link
Date 17/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, philo-sofa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Biffa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Daaaveee, Link
Date 14/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, mankycrack, Link
Date 13/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, !bluetonic!, Link
Date 12/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, yoyo59, Link
Date 11/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, JamesM, Link



To get on the Roll of Honour all you have to do is post a pic with your user name on it of your GTX 1070.​
 
Associate
Joined
1 Jul 2006
Posts
115
Whoop

Here's mine, complete with naff unboxing shots and comparison with the sagging backplateless 7870XT it replaces. I never thought to measure the space in my case, but Antec sure know how to make a huge case with bugger all room, any longer and the saw would have had to come out.





pic upload
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
OP
Joined
21 May 2012
Posts
31,940
Location
Dalek flagship
Here's mine, complete with naff unboxing shots and comparison with the sagging backplateless 7870XT it replaces. I never thought to measure the space in my case, but Antec sure know how to make a huge case with bugger all room, any longer and the saw would have had to come out.





pic upload

Welcome and on TROH.:)

The Roll of Honour.

Ft2xaoP.jpg


Date 07/08/2016, Make Inno3D iChill X3 Edition, RobinGopher, Link
Date 07/08/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, dunno, Link
Date 07/08/2016, Make Asus Strix, Scougar, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make KFA2 Reference, pulsemyne, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Scramz, Link
Date 03/08/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, melmac, Link
Date 01/08/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Rom, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Inno3D Founders Edition, MOOGLEYS, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Palit Jetstream, Ogi, Link
Date 30/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, NinjaCool, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, Bishie, Link
Date 29/07/2016, Make Palit Dual Fan, heatonpkmassive, Link
Date 28/07/2016, Make Zotac Founders Edition, _Jimlad_, Link
Date 27/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Ex3cut3r, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, Aretak, Link
Date 23/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Defiant306, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, C6ckneyGeezer, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Bickaxe, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, MeatLoaf, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Palit Super Jetstream, Troop, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make Asus Founders Edition, ah9098, Link
Date 22/07/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Kaapstad, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make EVGA FTW, clone, Link
Date 21/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Gripen90, Link
Date 19/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, XeNoNF50, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 HOF, Solidair, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Amatsubu, Link
Date 18/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, Jono8, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Edition, Raikiri, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, tommybhoy, Link
Date 16/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, TNA, Link
Date 15/07/2016, Make KFA2 EXOC, Darren_uk, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Troezar, Link
Date 14/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mario, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Extreme Edition, MarkeR, Link
Date 13/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, foster grant, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gigabyte Windforce 2x, wellibob, Link
Date 10/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, roddypoddy, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, chrcoluk, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, JTrickle, Link
Date 08/07/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, gtw1212, Link
Date 07/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, magicoi, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, Amatyr, Link
Date 06/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, divinebeetle, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, i_am_jon, Link
Date 04/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, Phil87, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, V_R, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, foxyfaefife, Link
Date 03/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, chris-82, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, razorpakk, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Palit GameRock Premier Edition, styuR, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Shawreyboy, Link
Date 02/07/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, Gripen90, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, shrek2, Link
Date 01/07/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make Gainward Phoenix Golden Sample, thefogo, Link
Date 30/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Carta, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Charlatan, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Daaaveee, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, Aretak, Link
Date 29/06/2016, Make Inno3D iChiLL X3 Edition, leerogers00, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, DougF1, Link
Date 28/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, markoboyo11, Link
Date 27/06/2016, Make Zotac AMP Edition, Mangochutney, Link
Date 25/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, BornEvil, Link
Date 23/06/2016, Make MSI Aero OC Edition, McGraw, Link
Date 22/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, smithy83, Link
Date 21/06/2016, Make MSI Armor OC Edition, Phixsator, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Paul_cz, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, Dave2150, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AthlonXP1800, Link
Date 20/06/2016, Make Gigabyte G1 Gaming, w00dy85, Link
Date 19/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, kully1972, Link
Date 18/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, AliGoz, Link
Date 17/06/2016, Make MSI Gaming X, philo-sofa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make Palit Founders Edition, Biffa, Link
Date 16/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, Daaaveee, Link
Date 14/06/2016, Make EVGA Founders Edition, mankycrack, Link
Date 13/06/2016, Make NVidia Founders Edition, !bluetonic!, Link
Date 12/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, yoyo59, Link
Date 11/06/2016, Make MSI Founders Edition, JamesM, Link



To get on the Roll of Honour all you have to do is post a pic with your user name on it of your GTX 1070.​
 
Soldato
Joined
8 Sep 2012
Posts
4,035
I did, everything maxed apart from AA and shadow res on medium and it's 60fps 99% of the time bar some odd drops at weird places.

I'd chalk it up to a dodgy engine, though. Anyways, it's perfectly playable, especially as it's not a fast paced game so an odd drop here and there doesn't change much.
 
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