17 year old girl allowed to kill herself Legally

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One has potential, the other does not. Fairly obvious, I should think.

Potential for?....
I suppose I'm probably just being nihilistic, which may or may not be due my current depression, But really the potential to live a life full of feelings (happy or sad) doesn't really mean anything?

It always comes across like people are forcing other people to live so they can grow to feel happy for a time, to reinforce that person's hope for happiness.
Telling themselves they live for happiness, so don't want another to not have the chance of that happiness too.

Are those moments of happiness really worth it? It's impossible to tell whether that other person will feel it is, and if it's not, life was a punishment
 
Difficult one this...she had a condition which is totally treatable and curable
Really?

e: I also find it difficult that people say "suicide is selfish; think how it affects others".

And yet when two people decide to have kids, that's somehow altruistic. The new person had absolutely no choice in the matter - the parents wished it to come into existence. For entirely selfish reasons. Because they wanted a child.

Yet when that resultant person decides it's life is not worth living - suddenly they're selfish? I don't agree at all.
 
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"suicide is selfish; think how it affects others".

To play opposites here....

"Don't you think it's selfish to expect someone to live through suffering so you can feel better?"

What's clear is the whole debate opens up pandoras box really. There isn't one right or wrong answer either....every side has a point.
 
I saw this article the other day. A very sad story.

I can understand why she felt depressed. I think one of the problems with rape is that in our efforts to condemn and be disgusted at the offender, especially in a crime like she went through, she herself feels attached to the crime too and developes a self disgust and self loathing.

I feel very sad for her. I wonder if there would have been a difference is she had people around her that would give her extra support and extra compliments and reassurance. She could have been a great advocate and help in the fight to stop rape. One of the big issues I've noticed with rapists is that they objectify the woman or child. Having someone like her being alive, speaking out, might make at least some people going down 'bad thoughts' roads to stop and think about what their actions would do.

The problem with depression is at the time you don't realise how depressed you are. I've had mild depression and at the time it felt like an emotional weight on me. I didn't realise until I'd come out of it how bad it was and the behaviour I was doing at the time. I just wish there had been a way to pull this girl out of her depressed state.

I don't know her personal situation. I just have a feeling that society around her let her down. She was an especially vulnerable girl and felt she had no way out.
 
I'm guessing you suffer from depression and hence you feel that way.

Not really any of your business, I'd call it more enduring than suffering and nihilistic existentialism than depression

Perhaps one day you will feel different.

And perhaps I won't, but I'm not given a choice because most do not understand because they're programmed to think suicide/death is a taboo and a scary thing and as such wish to force their view of life onto others who do not feel/think the same way
 
A little story (albeit copy and pasted from something I wrote a while ago) - In 2011 I worked with a young boy (lets call him Adam) who had been sexually, mentally and physically abused from the age of 5 (sadly, one of many). He was passed around from foster home to foster home, his birth family were all drug adicts; in short, much of his early life consisted of neglect beyond what most people will have ever experienced, witnessed or read about. Despite this, Adam was a lovely child. Whilst happy and playful for the most part, a detectable sadness hung over him. Occasionally, he would sit alone in the classroom, day-dreaming whilst looking at pictures of travel destinations on the computer, perhaps dreaming of a life in the future when he could explore the world; he'd never been away before. As is occasionally the case in my (previous) line of work, abused children tend to "zone in" on one particular person as a source of comfort; in the case of Adam, he chose me. For a child from such a tumultuous background, he was suprisingly articulate and we'd chat often. He'd tell me about his desire to become a doctor and how he loved Christmas because of all the toys that he'd receive.

One day he came into class with significant bruising running down much of the side of his body. As we were trained to do so, my team and I tried to determine how his injuries had occured. Rather than tell us, he launched into a violent attack against the staff; after which, his behaviour deteriorated significantly over the course of the next couple of years. Whereas once I was a target for his affection, now I was a target for his rage. I used to love my job, but that changed when every day was met with a violent attack by Adam. As the months rolled on, Adams behaviour deteriorated further. I remember one day in particular. He came into class with his head shaved; his curly blonde hair gone. The staff and I could smell that he'd been drinking. "We've lost him", my collegue said tearfully. I'll admit, I came close to leaving the job. But I didn't, because unlike every other person Adam had known, I wasn't going to give up on him.

In the summer of 2013 we arranged a camping trip for several of the most deprived children. Adam being one of them. It was a huge risk. All of them were extremely troubled and none of them had ever travelled beyond the confines of the region they lived, let alone camped out. Anxiety was high, but, as we set up our camp for the night, the children, possibly for the first time in their lives became, well, children. They laughed and played and even had a swim in the lake we were camped next to. Their problems a distant memory, replaced instead by just pure enjoyment. It was great to see. On the first night of the trip I was sat alone at the end of the jetty, looking off over the lake, relaxed and thankful that everything had gone well, when I heard footsteps approaching from behind. It was Adam. He sat down next to me. I don't want to lay this on too thick, but what he said to me will stay with me for the rest of my life. "Thanks", he said. "For what, dude?" I replied. "Because I'm happy."

As time went by, I moved on to a different job in a different sector. As much as I loved my time in support work, I felt as though I'd taken it as far as I could. On my last day, the children gave me a framed photograph of us all together on our camping trip. I heard recently that Adam had just completed his A-levels and is on track to studying medicine.

So, what point am I trying to make? I have nothing but the uttermost sympathy and respect for anyone who has had to endure any form of abuse. Despite my years working closely with children born into some of the darkest and most horrific levels of abuse, I still cannot fathom what they must be going through. But still, I simply cannot and will not accept that suicide is the only viable option for those with mental trauma; be it PTSD or otherwise. And yes, I'm aware of the notion of free choice and that it was her decision. Adam eventually told me how he got his bruises. His step-dad threw him down some stairs. That same day, he attempted suicide. I'm thankful he didn't succeed, and I know for a fact that he is to. To use an analogy, life is like a book made up of many chapters. The act of suicide is like slamming that book closed before discovering what might happen next.

Make of that what you will. I'm not here to debate this issue, just share a point of view.
 
To play opposites here....

"Don't you think it's selfish to expect someone to live through suffering so you can feel better?"

What's clear is the whole debate opens up pandoras box really. There isn't one right or wrong answer either....every side has a point.

A totally cognitive individual that has exhausted the breadth of current science, has the right to do as they please, anyone saying otherwise is simply an authoritarian.

Can it be abused? Only if society allows it, which currently it is allowing immense mental health issues which lead to devastating suicides, so indirectly or not you may aswell be humane about it and give families a chance to turn it around/say goodbye.

People who disagree with this are looking at it wrongly, currently people just run off while the family/friends had zero chance to intervene and that's it they're dead, probably horrifically as well. This doesn't promote suicide, it promotes a last ditch effort to pull back from the brink.

As far as i know, the Netherlands hasn't collapsed into a forced suicide hell, so far it seems to work for them.
 
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Living with rape can't be easy but people have been through far worse than her and lived perfectly normal lives, contributing a lot along the way. I think we should be looking into why people today are so mentally weak. I'm sure somewhere in the world today there are women being held captive and raped on a regular basis and their desire to survive it and go on to live an otherwise happy life will be overwhelming. Maybe it's the fact that we're so safe and secure in the west but we seem to have very little appreciation for life.
 
Really?

e: I also find it difficult that people say "suicide is selfish; think how it affects others".

And yet when two people decide to have kids, that's somehow altruistic. The new person had absolutely no choice in the matter - the parents wished it to come into existence. For entirely selfish reasons. Because they wanted a child.

Yet when that resultant person decides it's life is not worth living - suddenly they're selfish? I don't agree at all.

Yes. Really.
 
Living with rape can't be easy but people have been through far worse than her and lived perfectly normal lives, contributing a lot along the way. I think we should be looking into why people today are so mentally weak. I'm sure somewhere in the world today there are women being held captive and raped on a regular basis and their desire to survive it and go on to live an otherwise happy life will be overwhelming. Maybe it's the fact that we're so safe and secure in the west but we seem to have very little appreciation for life.
From what I can gather, the majority of people who are raped/abused as children carry forwards grievous mental health issues for the rest of their lives.

I think "perfectly normal" lives is a stretch.
 
Ive had it too. But if youve had it and come out the other side then you should also see that choosing to end your life would have been the wrong decision.

I have pretty bad anxiety and depression (clearly not anywhere near as severe as this poor girl was suffering with though) and some days the only way I keep myself going is by telling myself that there is light at the end of the tunnel and I wont feel like this forever.

We're all just a small chemical imbalance from feeling like there's no point living

There is no point living. But we may as well enjoy the ride.
 
And perhaps I won't, but I'm not given a choice

You could get what you need to end your life on Amazon right now and do it tomorrow morning without leaving the house. You could likely do it right now with things you have around the house. Don't pretend that others not being allowed to do it for you takes away your choice.

Living with rape can't be easy but people have been through far worse than her and lived perfectly normal lives, contributing a lot along the way. I think we should be looking into why people today are so mentally weak. I'm sure somewhere in the world today there are women being held captive and raped on a regular basis and their desire to survive it and go on to live an otherwise happy life will be overwhelming. Maybe it's the fact that we're so safe and secure in the west but we seem to have very little appreciation for life.

Keep in context she was 11 years old. Childhood abuse is a lot harder to deal with than adult abuse. One friend of mine was raped at (iirc) 22. It was upsetting and obviously a health scare and she's a little more wary than she was, but she's living a happy and production life and I'm certain she'd agree with you that many people go through worse, without in any way trivialising the experience. Another person I know lost her virginity at 11 and though at the time she thought of it as sex it was rape. That affects her even today in her late thirties and makes normal relationships very difficult. You haven't finished forming as a person and don't have a clear identity. So something you can say as an adult is not part of who you are, as a child it actually does become part of who you are because you're still forming. And it can take years of hard work to try and define yourself in a way that doesn't include that. People learn to manage the resulting problems, but that is different to 'getting over it'.

The point though, is I don't think anyone at 17 can be expected to have processed an experience like that and so cannot say how they will feel at say, 19 or 22. Most suicides are teenagers. One could argue that the reason there are fewer suicides amongst adults is that the actually suicidal have removed themselves from the pool but that's not really bourne out. Most people who have been through a suicidal stage in their life and now are not will be able to say that how they actually feel has changed, not that it's just a case of continuing unwillingness to kill themselves.

A lot of talk about "choice" in this thread. And not much recognition that professional assistance and support in doing so affects that choice. Any of us can kill ourselves. And if we really feel that strongly that our life is endless suffering then a short, painful experience would seem an obvious gain. People don't do that and should not do that, because of course that's not really a gain at all. There's also suicide contagion. This is a real thing. Support and publicity on this will encourage others to follow in the same path. People who would eventually turn their lives around and live a normal life. People trumpeting about choice are not recognising that this isn't some abstract thought experiment. This leads to deaths that otherwise wouldn't happen.
 
A little story (albeit copy and pasted from something I wrote a while ago) - In 2011 I worked with a young boy (lets call him Adam) who had been sexually, mentally and physically abused from the age of 5 (sadly, one of many). He was passed around from foster home to foster home, his birth family were all drug adicts; in short, much of his early life consisted of neglect beyond what most people will have ever experienced, witnessed or read about. Despite this, Adam was a lovely child. Whilst happy and playful for the most part, a detectable sadness hung over him. Occasionally, he would sit alone in the classroom, day-dreaming whilst looking at pictures of travel destinations on the computer, perhaps dreaming of a life in the future when he could explore the world; he'd never been away before. As is occasionally the case in my (previous) line of work, abused children tend to "zone in" on one particular person as a source of comfort; in the case of Adam, he chose me. For a child from such a tumultuous background, he was suprisingly articulate and we'd chat often. He'd tell me about his desire to become a doctor and how he loved Christmas because of all the toys that he'd receive.

One day he came into class with significant bruising running down much of the side of his body. As we were trained to do so, my team and I tried to determine how his injuries had occured. Rather than tell us, he launched into a violent attack against the staff; after which, his behaviour deteriorated significantly over the course of the next couple of years. Whereas once I was a target for his affection, now I was a target for his rage. I used to love my job, but that changed when every day was met with a violent attack by Adam. As the months rolled on, Adams behaviour deteriorated further. I remember one day in particular. He came into class with his head shaved; his curly blonde hair gone. The staff and I could smell that he'd been drinking. "We've lost him", my collegue said tearfully. I'll admit, I came close to leaving the job. But I didn't, because unlike every other person Adam had known, I wasn't going to give up on him.

In the summer of 2013 we arranged a camping trip for several of the most deprived children. Adam being one of them. It was a huge risk. All of them were extremely troubled and none of them had ever travelled beyond the confines of the region they lived, let alone camped out. Anxiety was high, but, as we set up our camp for the night, the children, possibly for the first time in their lives became, well, children. They laughed and played and even had a swim in the lake we were camped next to. Their problems a distant memory, replaced instead by just pure enjoyment. It was great to see. On the first night of the trip I was sat alone at the end of the jetty, looking off over the lake, relaxed and thankful that everything had gone well, when I heard footsteps approaching from behind. It was Adam. He sat down next to me. I don't want to lay this on too thick, but what he said to me will stay with me for the rest of my life. "Thanks", he said. "For what, dude?" I replied. "Because I'm happy."

As time went by, I moved on to a different job in a different sector. As much as I loved my time in support work, I felt as though I'd taken it as far as I could. On my last day, the children gave me a framed photograph of us all together on our camping trip. I heard recently that Adam had just completed his A-levels and is on track to studying medicine.

So, what point am I trying to make? I have nothing but the uttermost sympathy and respect for anyone who has had to endure any form of abuse. Despite my years working closely with children born into some of the darkest and most horrific levels of abuse, I still cannot fathom what they must be going through. But still, I simply cannot and will not accept that suicide is the only viable option for those with mental trauma; be it PTSD or otherwise. And yes, I'm aware of the notion of free choice and that it was her decision. Adam eventually told me how he got his bruises. His step-dad threw him down some stairs. That same day, he attempted suicide. I'm thankful he didn't succeed, and I know for a fact that he is to. To use an analogy, life is like a book made up of many chapters. The act of suicide is like slamming that book closed before discovering what might happen next.

Make of that what you will. I'm not here to debate this issue, just share a point of view.

Thank you for posting that.
 
I think as a society we have a duty of care to help people in need to heal rather than condone and aid their demise. I understand where she is coming from and why she may with all her heart wish to end her life but there is something fundamentally troubling with this as a concept.
 
There is no good solution to this issue.

On the one hand she is a 17 year old victim of a horrific crime. One would hope that with support and medical assistance she could come to terms with that crime and perhaps in time live a normal live. Giving up the struggle now is the easy solution, but if she could live a normal life at 25, is that not worth trying for?

But on the other hand, it's probably better for the economy if she goes. And in the end, that's what we all care about right, an extra 0.0005% growth?
 
You could get what you need to end your life on Amazon right now and do it tomorrow morning without leaving the house. You could likely do it right now with things you have around the house. Don't pretend that others not being allowed to do it for you takes away your choice.

You didn't read what I implied, people lack the understanding of why people may want to suicide which leaves them devastated at the loss of that person, yes I could quite easily end my life but not without causing emotional harm to others due to their lack of understanding why I would want to do it, I'm sure they'd take the loss much better if say I had incurable cancer and chose to end my life because of that as opposed to ending life because I think life is boring and utterly pointless and not worth the hassle, just because x people want to die because of a chemical imbalance that can be "fixed" doesn't mean it applies to all who want to die for reasons beyond simply not feeling happy
 
This is horrifying but depression isn't just a mental disorder, there's chemical imbalances and physical effects that make it a life limiting issue.

We continuously think less of it because of people who use it to describe having a bad time, but with significant trauma it can seriously ruin a life socially and physically.
 
Not really any of your business, I'd call it more enduring than suffering and nihilistic existentialism than depression



And perhaps I won't, but I'm not given a choice because most do not understand because they're programmed to think suicide/death is a taboo and a scary thing and as such wish to force their view of life onto others who do not feel/think the same way

No offence but the reason people view death as a taboo is because when it is happens due to unnatural causes it causes suffering on the family of the deceased. Perhaps they have a right too...

We are all responsible for each other, that is how a healthy society functions. A dead person has no use.

The whole reason for depression is a desire to be happy, by killing that person you never allow him or her any chance to achieve happiness.
 
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