£1m to prove an afterlife.

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:04

AcidHell2 said:
it could be either the soul leaving the body, or some inscribed pattern in the brain, which is induced by hormone levels when at deaths door.
Neither at the moment can be proved or disproved, but to use that as evidence for an after life is silly.
When at deaths door huge amounts of hormones are released and these not well understood at this time.

True, but what about the case I posted earlier, where there was no blood flowing through the body as it had been drained, yet the patient, who was in no sense of panic or fear, still experiecned a Near Death Experience, when their heart wasn't beating and their EEG was flat due to the fact the brain was dead for 5 or 6 minutes? Surely if what you said was true, then said patients NDE would have "cut off" when the blood was drained from the body? If you actually look at Pim van Lomels research and compare it up against Sue Blackmore research (who was the one that proposed the "dying brain" theory, the one in which you state large amounts of hormones are released before death) the results actually nullify her "dying brain" theory. In fact, nearly everyone who has tried to come up with a scientific explaination to NDE's has thrown in the towel, so to speak, because there is more "evidence" for NDE's that condtrdict their own theories, than those that support it.

It has actually been reported that 80% of Blind people who have had NDEs have reported some kind of "verdical image" during their NDEs, despite the fact they have been blind for their entire life...

Nitefly · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:06

Robbie G said:
Talk for yourself.
...
No offence pal, but I reckon you can't comprehend much at all let alone nothing.

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:07

Woody__ said:
True, but what about the case I posted earlier,

?? I cant see a previous link, care to point me in the right direction, as far as I know if your brain has ceased all activity your are dead and cannot be recovered, it is what is known as brain dead, if you've been kept alive on machines as soon as your brain dead there is no hope.

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:12

AcidHell2 said:
?? I cant see a previous link, care to point me in the right direction, as far as I know if your brain has ceased all activity your are dead and cannot be recovered, it is what is known as brain dead, if you've been kept alive on machines as soon as your brain dead there is no hope.

Here it is once again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds'_NDE if you doubt Wiki (Which i suppose many would) there is both for and against arguments at the bottom of the paged as cited sources. You should note tha even in the Skeptical argument on the randi.org forums, most people can't dismiss her case because there is so much in it that actually defies logical, medical explaination. I think that as an open minded skeptic, her case is a good argument for the concept that conciousness is more than inside just the brain. But I will leave that up to you to come to your own conclusion

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:20

very interesting, but I wouldn't say conclusive in the least, worthy of more research deffinatley.

can there be brain activity with out brain waves? or are they the same thing?. if there's no brain wave, does that mean there's no electronic pulses?

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:30

AcidHell2 said:
very interesting, but I wouldn't say conclusive in the least, worthy of more research deffinatley.

can there be brain activity with out brain waves? or are they the same thing?. if there's no brain wave, does that mean there's no electronic pulses?

It's debatable. EEGs aren't entirely accurate. However, if there is no blood at all going to the brain, I think it can be assumed that if the EEG is flat, it's because the brain is actually dead and not because the EEG can't recognise smaller amounts of information but because there is no vessel to carry around things like ketmine, dopamine and any hormone you can think of, to other parts of the brain that would spur that kind of activity.

The EEG does however measure the amount of brain activity that goes on. Higher brain activity (which is basically conscious though etc) is almost certainly measured by the EEG. There can indeed be activity within the brain even if the EEG is flat, just not conscious thought and that is what this patients NDE implies. Even if it was just a dream, it would still require higher level brain activity. Something which is impossible with a flat EEG.

I don't think her case is evidence for the afterlife, because as I said before, that requires a subjective position. However, as "evidence" for the idea of consciousness being more than just inside the brain, I think it's almost as devastating as some of the ESP research.

Wither or not you believe that to be the case, I think you are correct in saying that it's worth much more research.

Nitefly · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:36

Woody__ said:
However, if there is no blood at all going to the brain, I think it can be assumed that if the EEG is flat, it's because the brain is actually dead and not because the EEG can't recognise smaller amounts of information....

Assumptions are very dangerous. Never, ever make an assumption in science. I'm sure you know this, and I don't mean to be patronising but.... don't do it

And you do know dopamine is a neurotransmitter, right?

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:39

aren't most hormones released in the brain and can be absorbed though close regions without the help of blood flow?

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:43

Nitefly said:
Assumptions are very dangerous. Never, ever make an assumption in science. I'm sure you know this, and I don't mean to be patronising but.... don't do it

And you do know dopamine is a neurotransmitter, right?

You're correct, I shouldn't assume. I've had one too many drinks, but I guess that shouldn't really effect my judgement, should it?

Indeed dopamine is a neurotransmitter, but that doesn't effect things like memory and emotions etc and since the most common correlation in NDEs are feelings of peacefulness and remembering exactly what happened, I think that can be ruled out. Dopamine effects movement and motivation. Things which are impossible to achieve even if the brain wasn't dead and you were under general anaesthesia.

Nitefly · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:45

AcidHell2 said:
aren't most hormones released in the brain and can be absorbed though close regions without the help of blood flow?

Some hormones are yes. However the hormone effects of dopamine are almost irrelevent to the brain activity in question. It is its role as a neurotransmitter that is important. Neurotransmitters are not transported by the blood, which is why I was nitpicking.

But I'm always open to learning something new everyday. Sorry for sidetracking this deabate.

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:47

AcidHell2 said:
aren't most hormones released in the brain and can be absorbed though close regions without the help of blood flow?

How would you propose that a dead brain could do that?

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:48

Woody__ said:
How would you propose that a dead brain could do that?

by absorbing it through cell walls.

Nitefly said:
Some hormones are yes. However the hormone effects of dopamine are almost irrelevent to the brain activity in question. It is its role as a neurotransmitter that is important. Neurotransmitters are not transported by the blood, which is why I was nitpicking.

But I'm always open to learning something new everyday. Sorry for sidetracking this deabate.

no problem with side tracking, I don't know a lot about the brain and hormones,so all information is good

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:51

AcidHell2 said:
by absorbing it through cell walls.

But surely if the brain was dead, it wouldn't be able to carry out this activity? Wouldn't the experience just "shut off" after the residual effect had disappeared?

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:52

Woody__ said:
But surely if the brain was dead, it wouldn't be able to carry out this activity? Wouldn't the experience just "shut off" after the residual effect had disappeared?

Cells can still carry out many functions after clinically dead.

Nitefly · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:53

Woody__ said:
Indeed dopamine is a neurotransmitter, but that doesn't effect things like memory and emotions etc

Incorrect. It does have a role in these areas, I do assure you.

and since the most common correlation in NDEs are feelings of peacefulness and remembering exactly what happened, I think that can be ruled out.

What?

Dopamine effects movement and motivation. Things which are impossible to achieve even if the brain wasn't dead and you were under general anaesthesia.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here... but I assure you I have made dead animals move, and animals without a brain move, by manipulating neuron activity.

DalGurak · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:55

I noticed a lot of people are saying it's impossible to prove whether the afterlife exists or not.

I feel your thinking too literally about the answer. i.e Whether science will enventually check for its existence.

Instead how about thinking about it this way - if we ever manage to revive those few people who have opted to be frozen and preserved would they not be able to tell us? ( Ignoring the fact that if they were religious, or after fame, they might make up a load of crud ).

Eitherway, surely we could reach our own conclusions based on whether they have moments (akin to near-death experiences) or perhaps years (seemingly in favour of an afterlife) of memories following their death - or perhaps none at all (definately not in favour).

ArmyofHarmony · 23 Jun 2007 at 01:58

1 million is a ridiculiously low amount as well, Bill Gates should offer a billion

Yarkanat · 23 Jun 2007 at 02:05

No one can PROVE afterlife because you would have to be dead... use common sense u cant come back from dead and tell everyone: omg! afterlife!

THMRK · 23 Jun 2007 at 02:06

Nitefly said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here... but I assure you I have made dead animals move, and animals without a brain move, by manipulating neuron activity.

What I'm trying to say is that even if you were in a completely relaxed state, there is still no accouting for the fact that the patient managed to see and accurately describe (apparently from above) the tool used to cut her head open, the surroundings and what went on in the room, even though her eyes were taped shut. I mean yeah, a case can be made for the fact she may have heard things happen because ear plugs don't block out all sound and there is a possiblity she wasn't fully sedated, but I still can't see how it would be possible for her to "see" and describe these things with such accuracy.

Glaucus · 23 Jun 2007 at 02:06

Yarkanat said:
No one can PROVE afterlife because you would have to be dead... use common sense u cant come back from dead and tell everyone: omg! afterlife!

But given enough time, science could prove or disprove it. Just takes funding and people to start thinking of outside the box.

Woody__ said:
What I'm trying to say is that even if you were in a completely relaxed state, there is still no accouting for the fact that the patient managed to see and accurately describe (apparently from above) the tool used to cut her head open and what went on in the room, even though her eyes were taped shut.

holby city type programs, mixed with a heightened sense of hearing, could produce instances exactly like those.