2005 Brazilian Gran Prix

//Mike · 25 Sep 2005 at 23:21

SC04 said:
which is exactly what Alonso has done!

I include reliabilty in having good luck

On your first point I notice you cleverly edited out what I said prior to that. He hasn't consistently proven he can keep faster drivers behind him when on a level playing field. A prime example was today at the restart after the safety car period. It only appears as though he's done this because his rivals haven often started far enough behind him on the grid for Alonso to finish infront of them after having driven a fairly normal race.

I don't include reliability under good luck.

SC04 · 25 Sep 2005 at 23:42

//Mike said:
On your first point I notice you cleverly edited out what I said prior to that. He hasn't consistently proven he can keep faster drivers behind him when on a level playing field. A prime example was today at the restart after the safety car period. It only appears as though he's done this because his rivals haven often started far enough behind him on the grid for Alonso to finish infront of them after having driven a fairly normal race.

Formula one is very rarely a level playing field, Alonso held off a world champion in the quicker car using race craft unseen for a long time without breaking sweat, and has shown the same character all season even if the McLarens have been breaking down, Fisi is/was highly regarded and has now been trounced in equal equipment.

You dont mess with Montoya on a rolling restart when you only need six points, sorry if Alonso needed to keep Montoya behind to impress you, but his game plan and mind set was adjusted differently today, the list of people he has impressed all season is regarded far higher then bedroom race fans.

//Mike said:
I don't include reliability under good luck.

'Mansell' and 'tyre blow out' doesnt mean much to you then?

Type_R · 26 Sep 2005 at 14:39

Strange how I don't recall either Ron Dennis or Flavio saying anything like this in the last few seasons:

Yet the most arrogant team in the World had this to say:

Even Ferrari boss Jean Todt has been impressed. "Today Fernando Alonso took over the drivers' title that Michael had won with Ferrari for the last five years. Fernando has put together a perfect season, supported by Renault, led by Flavio Briatore and Patrick Faure and Michelin. Congratulations must go to all of them."

Enough said.

Arc · 26 Sep 2005 at 17:04

Type_R said:
Yet the most arrogant team in the World had this to say:

Wow, when did Jean Todt move to McLaren, oops my mistake

.

Arc · 26 Sep 2005 at 17:28

SC04 said:
Well at the start of the Season Montoya wasnt there LOL !!

Kimi and Montoya have both came close to Schumacher in inferior cars in seasons past, so youre having a laugh on that one too.
I guess you only started watching F1 this season then?
I have a tape of Montoya winning the last race of 2004 in a Williams LOL, do you want it? I could torrent it before you make any more silly posts

erm:
http://www.formula1.com/archive/driver/detail/2005/9/108.html
Montoya looks like he was there for a few races at the start of the season, only missed 3 and 4 with a shoulder injury from playing "tennis", whos making silly posts now

Having a laugh on that one to? I never said Kimi wasnt quick, he just aint consistent, same with JPM (last few races should show that). Montoya wining in Brazil last year, I watched it myself, it was also his only win in 2004 in what was a rather dismal season, so again your having a laugh

.

Only watching F1 from the start of this season, erm I've been watching it a lot longer than that, possibly longer than you

. I've definetly been on the forum longer as you might be able to tell by simple forum etiquette :cool:

.

Type_R · 26 Sep 2005 at 18:46

I rest my case as muppet Ron Dennis opens his chest of treasures:

“Our drivers certainly have better equipment but personally I feel they're also better drivers,” Dennis told Autosport-Atlas.

“This may sound like sour grapes and I'm taking something away from him, which I'm certainly not, but it's the way I feel."

Dennis said that because Alonso’s large points lead has allowed him to drive conservatively, he hasn’t demonstrated that he has the speed of a true champion.

“We’ll only know now how strong or not he is, because he’s been driving percentages over the last few races,” Dennis told Autosport-Atlas.

SC04 · 26 Sep 2005 at 19:50

Arc said:
erm:
http://www.formula1.com/archive/driver/detail/2005/9/108.html
Montoya looks like he was there for a few races at the start of the season, only missed 3 and 4 with a shoulder injury from playing "tennis", whos making silly posts now

Having a laugh on that one to? I never said Kimi wasnt quick, he just aint consistent, same with JPM (last few races should show that). Montoya wining in Brazil last year, I watched it myself, it was also his only win in 2004 in what was a rather dismal season, so again your having a laugh .

Only watching F1 from the start of this season, erm I've been watching it a lot longer than that, possibly longer than you . I've definetly been on the forum longer as you might be able to tell by simple forum etiquette .

so did he miss 3 or 4 at the start, middle, or end of the season ? sure I exaggerate but I make it the start of the season.

SC04 · 26 Sep 2005 at 20:10

goreblast said:
Just sent the following to ITV-

Just watched the Brazilian GP. Whilst the race was good, yet again ITV try their level best to muck it up.

Way too many breaks - you can show football uninterrupted and SKY have the new A1GP without breaks, so why?? It ruins the coverage. Give it back to the beeb.

Every time there is a late race what do we get; that damn caption scrolling across the screen saying that Coronation Street will be on soon. People can read TV papers or teletext, you should not be interrupting our viewing pleasure with that rubbish. Indeed with all the late races you always cut the show short before the press conference (a much loved part of the race weekend I would think) and driver interviews. This weekend it was more important than ever to stay with the coverage for 30 minutes or so after the race end. Fernando Alonso had just won the Formula 1 Drivers Championship, but what do we get Jim Rosenthal telling us what other sport is on ITV over the coming week. I do not care what football, boxing, other racing is on over the next while; it is a F1 program. Let them show a caption at the end of the titles with that information on it.

I was watching the race on 'Le deux' with ITV's sound, the ITV advert breaks were unreal, La deux had 2 very short ads around 5 seconds which were both sponsors in F1.

Although I was watching the racing I was still aware of the products being advertised with sound only on ITV so this could be a good opportunity for a company to run radio style ads which would have more impact than peeing people off.
Or even better as mentioned on here earlier in the season, just use picture in picture.

SC04 · 26 Sep 2005 at 21:47

Fernando Alonso celebrated making his "dream come true" after becoming the youngest champion in Formula One history, claiming Kimi Raikkonen was a tougher adversary than Michael Schumacher at his peak.

More here

Arc · 26 Sep 2005 at 23:04

SC04 said:
so did he miss 3 or 4 at the start, middle, or end of the season ? sure I exaggerate but I make it the start of the season.

Nah, you mis understand

. He missed the 3rd and 4th GP of the season, two in total.

SC04 · 26 Sep 2005 at 23:23

Arc said:
Nah, you mis understand . He missed the 3rd and 4th GP of the season, two in total.

Arc said:
Kimi and Montoya are only quick now due to the McLaren being so much faster than anything else, at the start of the season they werent

Montoya by his own admission was finding his feet at McLaren early on, then gets injured, then suffered with fitness problems when he came back.
This would partly explain why he wasnt quick at the 'start of the season' and Ive never seen Kimi drive slow

In fact he holds the fastest lap in only the second race :cool:

dannyjo22 · 26 Sep 2005 at 23:34

Ok so Alonso won, fair play, but this year for me has been as dull as ever in the drivers title. In fact I dont even think we had a drivers title. The reliability aspect and the penalties for having an engine go are too severe. Its a 3 fold penalty. The driver loses points, he loses 10 places and has to qualify earlier next time around.

Thats made this year a 2 part constructors championship, I really don't see Alonso as having done much to win this year other than wind the mix down and rely on his car to keep going. There has to be a way of penalising the constructor for failures and not the driver.

Is that the sort of drivers title you want to see? Instead of Kimi and Alonso going head to head we had Kimi mid grid with a compromised race. Low fuel to get as good a grid slot as possible.

After 3 or 4 races Alonso's job was done. From 4 races in he just protected a lead by running lean. As soon as he was in 3rd he settled for it. the points system also aids that kind of thinking.

I'm not saying Alonso did anything wrong by taking those options but Imola is the only race I can think of where he battled for a win or points. Where as Kimi beat Alonso from all manner of grid positions.

The whole Alonso approach was minimum risk, he didnt even battle to hard with JPM and try to win the title as even Hill managed with a win.

It saddens me that two young fast chargers have the rules to play with that promote that sort of mentality. If you have a bad start to the season like Mclaren did the catch up is almost impossible if your fighting a reliable car. Rather than make the title more open its made a comeback more difficult.

I think this year has thrown some good individual races but the title fight has been over for a long while and rather than seeing the two best youngsters fighting it out we have had one on the limit with the other at 3/4's making sure it gets home. We have been robbed of good action.

I'm looking forward to the last couple of races to see if Alonso can actually mix it up now the championship is his. I'm not sure if he can or will get out of that mentality quickly again in the next race.

Fair play to Alonso for the title, he used the rules at his disposal, but Ive only seen him win one race this year on speed and pace and that cannot be right can it?

el_dazza · 26 Sep 2005 at 23:38

dannyjo22 said:
Fair play to Alonso for the title, he used the rules at his disposal, but Ive only seen him win one race this year on speed and pace and that cannot be right can it?

Bahrain? Imola? France? Probably more but cant remember.. too tired

Murf · 27 Sep 2005 at 12:28

Right, let's put this Alonso\Raikonnen, Renault\McLaren thing to bed. This is my interpretation of the races.

Australia - Fisi wins due to rain in qualifying. Alonso 3rd. Nothing spectacular. Raikonnen has to start from pits but still scores a point. Montoya throws away second.

Malaysia - Alonso wins. No pressure as Raikonnen had a puncture, cost him a podium.

Bahrain - Alonso managed to win by beating a Toyota, wow. Raikonnen managed 3rd from 9th.

San Marino - Alonso being owned by Raikonnen, after 8 laps his McLaren dies. Alonso wins with an impressive display. Few and far between throughout the course of the season.

Spain - Both on the front two rows with no reliability problems. Only one winner there, Raikonnen by 27 secs.

Monaco - Both on the front row of the grid. Raikonnen owns Alonso who's apparent ability to drive defensively cost him 2 places as both Williams past him on the tight track.

Europe - Raikonnen leading all the way. Stays ahead of Alonso despite the fact the vibrations from a flat spotted tire are virtually blinding him at high speed. Suspension fails 1 lap from the end. Alonso wins.

Canada - Alonso crashes while not under pressure. Raikonnen wins from 7th.

USA - We know Ferrari suck, and after this race so does the entire world.

France - Start to finish for Alonso. Raikonnen gets 2nd from 13th after engine troubles.

Britain - Alonso loses out from pole and finishes behind Montoya who outdrives him. Raikonnen gets 3rd from 12th, again, engine troubles.

Germany - Alonso gifted another win after Raikonnen retired from a dominant 1st place with hydraulics problems.

Hungary - Alonso crashes and loses his front wing. Unlike Raikonnen he can't fight back to score points although this is partially due to the nature of the Hungaroring. Raikonnen dominates and wins.

Turkey - Alonso out driven by winner Raikonnen and his team mate Montoya. Montoya however throws away 2nd to Alonso as he had been hit from behind by Monteiro damaging the rear diffuser.

Italy - Alonso outdriven by Montoya. Raikonnen forced to start in 11th after winning pole but changing engine and having to replace a damaged tyre during the race still secures fourth.

Belgium - Raikonnen outclasses Alonso and wins. Montoya chucks away second.

Brazil - Montoya and Raikonnen dominate again. Alonso close to the pace in third.

Now we can pick out countless excellent drives from Raikonnen. The only drive from Alonso which is comparable was Imola. Now considering Alonso failed to show that metal at any point later in the season I think people make more of his performance in that race than they should.

Alonso picked up most of his victories because of other peoples retirements. Any time Raikonnen managed to go through a weekend without a problem he'd destroy Alonso. The only time Raikonnen seemed off the pace was Bahrain.

The Renault's reliability and McLaren's lack of it won the championship. Alonso was just a passenger. Fair play to the lad though, he's achieved his dream and I wish him the best. I just feel for Raikonnen, it must kill him knowing he is twice the racer Alonso is, yet he failed to win the championship.

dannyjo22 · 27 Sep 2005 at 20:59

couldnt agree more.

Murf · 28 Sep 2005 at 14:36

dannyjo22 said:
couldnt agree more.

Exactly!

I just can't see how anyone in their right mind thought Alonso did anything bar drive that Renault within it's limit and avoid incidents. McLaren and Raikonnen lost the championship, Alonso won nothing.

el_dazza · 28 Sep 2005 at 15:47

it goes like that though doesnt it! i'm an alonso fan and i'm really happy for him, and like you say, if it wasnt for mclaren's reliability problems, raikkonen probably would have won the title ages ago. always next year eh

Murf · 28 Sep 2005 at 16:40

el_dazza said:
always next year eh

I hope so!

el_dazza · 28 Sep 2005 at 19:20

tbh the smart money next year would definately be on raikkonen and mclaren. surely kimi will make it "3rd time lucky" after 2 hard fought seasons only to lose out to reliability problems. nice summary of the season there btw

JBeck · 28 Sep 2005 at 20:11

//Mike said:
Well, I don't know if you bothered to read any other parts of the thread, but the discussion had been going on prior to my post you quoted. Therfore I have listened to other peoples points, rather than being the ignorant fool you seem to be trying to make me out to be.

Where in my post did i say that you're a 'ignorant fool? Do you HAVE to be so dramatic by totally exaggerating my quote?

Was going to reply to your other points but SC04 got there before me with the same answers.

Anyway i'm sure you and the rest of the Kimi fans will be celebrating this time next season anyway, reliability allowing of course.
Will be interesting to see how hard Alonso pushes now that he has nothing to lose...