2005 United States Grand Prix

I know that they said

"As a result we reached the conclusion that we will not compete with these tyres in the current configuration of the circuit."

but they could have limited their teams to using (eg 4th gear through turn 13 which would have keep speeds in a safe area I think) a lower gear or lower speed - the the electronic gizmos they have now that is something that could possibly have been built into the systems had it been decided early enough. Or even marked out (using cones / lines) a slow route through the inside of the corner for Michelin teams to slow them down and sloow the other teams (who have done nothing wrong) to race as normal.

They should also have had a second lower performance backup tyre with them as well (as is in the rules) which is for this very situation, they must have decided to ignore that completely.
 
goreblast said:
They could even have raced on intermediate tyres and then made a pitstop when they started to go baldy (within the rules).
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That would be an even more dangerous situation, intermediate tyres need rain water to cool, without rain they overheat VERY quickly.

F1 is so stupid these days, the cars are way too flimsy and driver aids like traction control are IMO just annoying, it's gotta be more about the drivers instead of the cars.

These days I enjoy other motorsports like touring cars, Le Mans and Indy cars more than F1, shame really.

And I'm still waiting for the day Barrichello finally loses his temper and headbutts Schumi breaking his nose (note to myself: this is not the SE watch your language :p )
 
goreblast said:
I suggest that everyone head over the FIA website and read the correspondance between Michelin and the FIA. From it you will see that the ball was most certainly in Michelin and their teams court - they had several options under which to race, but chose to be pigheaded and withdraw.
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I've just read the correspondance and this is the way I see it…..

Michelin make it quite clear that the tires were unsafe and that (as stated numerous times above) they were unpredictable (which is highly dangerous).

The FIA give them 3 choices:

1. Slow down in the final corner
2. Change the tires from the qualifying set
3. Change the tire repeatedly during the race

They also suggest that they are unwilling to change the track configuration and compromise the Bridgestone teams (read Ferrari).

Michelin reply saying that they are "not able to sufficiently guarantee the safety of the drivers" which rules out options 2 and 3. Option 1 is an amazingly ill thought out option since how slow is slow? The drivers are so competitive that they would just try and cruise past a rival at 2-3mph more and before long everyone is back up to full speed.

So the situation now is that Michelin have made what i believe is a genuine manufacturing error and have an unsafe product. The FIA are aware of this and offer them some solutions, 2 of which require using said unsafe product and one which requires teams to slow in the final corner.

The teams now sit down and work out the best course of action. Various options were suggested and the only real solution was the chicane. The FIA declined - what else were the teams supposed to do? The teams had their hands tied (in the name of safety) and the FIA are the only people who can really make the decision since they are the governing body. They chose not to and therefore I hold them accountable for the 6 car race (which if it wasn't for that daft Russian team know as Jordan would have been 2).

As with every other political discussion in F1 lately, Ferrari and the FIA sit on one side of the table, the other 9 teams on the other (7 Michelin 2 Bridgestone). The FIA don't want to disadvantage the "teams that brought the correct tires" because those teams are Ferrari (Jordan and Minardi). If you know anything about Bridgestone’s relationship with the teams 90% of their resources go on Ferrari, 10% on the other two. Ferrari are such a massive global brand that the FIA have jumped into bed with Ferrari seeing them as the reason most people watch F1 and completely forgotten about the other teams presuming they'll still want to be involved with their ill thought out championship.

I will reiterate my point that Michelin made an error, brought an unsafe product and as far as i can see made every effort to allow the teams to race. The FIA wouldn't agree on a solution so the Michelin teams withdrew. Michelin were punished for their error but F1 was punished and brought into question by the FIA.

Basically what is ramble/rant is getting at is that the extension to the Concorde agreement has made the relationship between the FIA and Ferrari far too close alienating the other teams.

Cheers
 
goreblast said:
I know that they said

"As a result we reached the conclusion that we will not compete with these tyres in the current configuration of the circuit."

but they could have limited their teams to using (eg 4th gear through turn 13 which would have keep speeds in a safe area I think) a lower gear or lower speed -
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Asking the Michelin runners to ease off in turn 13-14 was one of the stupidest and potentially more dangerous solutions.

In the past, races have been started under a safety car when Bridgestone were not prepared for torrential rain.
 
i just dont know what to think of this whole saga.

on the one hand i can see that changing the course to suit the tyres is infinately unfair on the bridgestone runners. They ahve done nothing to warrant this move. how many races have bridgestone been uncompetative in this year? did they change the circuits to make them more bridgestone friendly? nope....

on the other hand i can see the need to race a full grand prix with a grid of 20 cars.

what were michelin thinking?
 
Nickg said:
i just dont know what to think of this whole saga.

on the one hand i can see that changing the course to suit the tyres is infinately unfair on the bridgestone runners. They ahve done nothing to warrant this move. how many races have bridgestone been uncompetative in this year? did they change the circuits to make them more bridgestone friendly? nope....

on the other hand i can see the need to race a full grand prix with a grid of 20 cars.

what were michelin thinking?
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Its not about being uncompetative, its about safety.

Cheers
 
Lifted from Planet-F1.com ( http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_20003.shtml )

Michelin, however, are likely to bear the immediate brunt of F1's shame.

The FIA are expected to charge the French tyre manufacturers, whose admission that their rubber was unsafe to use at Indy precipitated Sunday's shambles, with bringing the sport into disrepute this week.

The withering response of Charlie Whiting, the FIA's race director, to Michelin’s request for a chicane to be introduced, in which he scorned their failure to supply "correct tyres", is likely to be a mere taster of the FIA's response.

'We are very surprised that this difficulty has arisen,' he continued. 'As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tyre to an event so as to ensure that a back-up (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tyre given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

'That the teams you supply are not in possession of such a tyre will also be a matter for the FIA to consider in due course under Article 151c of the International Sporting Code.'

Under the terms of Article 151C, penalties can be applied for "any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to any competition or to the sport in general".

Michelin's apparent incompetence could not be worst timed, coming just days after the FIA published proposals to limit tyre supply to just one organisation for 2008 and beyond.

Moreover, 'Michelin's failure to supply its teams with safe and durable tyres less than two weeks after it was warned by the FIA not to sacrifice safety for performance [after Kimi Raikkonen's tyre failure at the Nurburgring] could force the French tyre company's withdrawal from the sport,' noted The Guardian.

However, in mitigation, Michelin publicly announced their mistake nearly 48 hours before the grand prix began.

That the sport could then not reach a compromise for the sake of its reputation and image damns those far beyond the confines of Michelin.

"The bottom line is Michelin made a mistake. But after that the FIA had it in their hands to find a solution and ensure we all raced out there. The most important people, the fans, have been forgotten in all of this," noted Coulthard.

Jacques Villeneuve, meanwhile, blamed Ferrari for their failure to agree to the introduction of a chicane: “We could have raced with a chicane, if a chicane had been put before the banking, but Ferrari didn't accept."

Michael Schumacher's comment, "I don't know what Michelin's problem is, but this wasn't our problem," spoke volumes about Ferrari's intransigence ahead of F1's race of shame.

F1's blame game is set to explode in the coming days but the damage has already been done. On Sunday this was a sport that imploded.

The cost, which will perhaps never be fully appreciated, will be borne by all those shamed by their association to this reprehensible debacle.
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Pretty much as i suggested above:

Michelin will be punished by potentially leaving F1, FIA fines and bad PR.

F1 will be punished by the FIAs lack of vision.

Cheers
 
It seems ridiculous that there was a vote about whether to have a chicane or not. There wasnt any time to waste, action was needed immediately, the FIA shouldnt be asking teams to vote, it should take the decision, consult the teams yes, but not let a vote decide it.
Letting the sport down like that (especially the fans) is simply ridiculous. Fans will sue, sponsers will sue, the reprocussions will go on for years.
And they chose to do it in the country with the largest economy and most sue-happy culture, great call that!
 
This should mean the end of Michelin in F1. How they can try to point the finger at any body else beggers belief. The teams had no choice but to pull out after the memo from Michelin and for them to blame FIA for not making last minute changes to the track is just like a team turning up for the FA Cup final without a goalkeeper and asking for the goals to be made smaller.

I suspect that Michelin will be on the end of a few large lawsuits for failing to provide suitable tyres.
 
Peg said:
This should mean the end of Michelin in F1. How they can try to point the finger at any body else beggers belief. The teams had no choice but to pull out after the memo from Michelin and for them to blame FIA for not making last minute changes to the track is just like a team turning up for the FA Cup final without a goalkeeper and asking for the goals to be made smaller.

I suspect that Michelin will be on the end of a few large lawsuits for failing to provide suitable tyres.
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Yes. Michelin had a manufacturing fault. They are partly to blame but all companies have them. Even the best cars pull out of a GP every now and then because of faults. No one is infallible. FIA had no plan in place should a race problem occur.

Most of the blame, as far as I see it, sits firmly on the FIA shoulders. It is the FIA duty to look after the interests of F1. It is after all a business first and a sport second. As a business it needs to put on a show. If that meant a compromise in favour of the teams not in Fault, i.e Ferrari, then penalties for the other teams should have taken place in the interest of running a race and mostly in the interest of the sport. That is out of Michelins hands to do this. The FIA should have sorted this mess out, it is their fault and no one else's. A race could have been run that should have been pointed deducted for Michelin teams. FIA refused because Ferrari refused. They are all a disgrace. The business is run like a government department. Too much politics and no one with the back bone to make a decision.

The sooner we have a breakaway Formula the better.

It will be a disapointment if Michelin are sued over this. As I said, it was a fault similar for them as to a Ferrari breaking down during a race but no one would sue Ferrari because they didn't complete a race due to a fault and denied the veiwing public of seeing them compete? Madness......... :rolleyes:
 
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Peg said:
This should mean the end of Michelin in F1. How they can try to point the finger at any body else beggers belief. The teams had no choice but to pull out after the memo from Michelin and for them to blame FIA for not making last minute changes to the track is just like a team turning up for the FA Cup final without a goalkeeper and asking for the goals to be made smaller.
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I think Bridgestone turning up for Brazil 2003 without a proper rain tyre is a better example than your FA cup one.
In 2003 the FIA were happy to help an ill prepared Bridgestone, but not Michelin yesterday.
 
SC04 said:
I think Bridgestone turning up for Brazil 2003 without a proper rain tyre is a better example than your FA cup one.
In 2003 the FIA were happy to help an ill prepared Bridgestone, but not Michelin yesterday.
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No, it was the Michelin teams before the start of the season that decided that they would only bring one rain tyre to GPs for the whole year to save costs and because there was more Michelin teams then that rule was decided on. Both teams only had intermediate tyres which had no chance of coping with the amount of rain on that occasion.

The fans are not getting told the whole story. Paul Stoddart started by saying that it was Ferrari that didn't agree to the chicane. Then later on during the race he then said that it was Jordan who didn't agree.

As I have already said in this thread, the Michelin cars could just have went slower around turn 13, which a chicane would do, but full speed around the rest of the lap where there was no concerns over the tyres.
 
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