20mph residential speed limit (replacing 30mph)

In a more general sense this is such a funny subject - I've been having a discussion on Facebook over plans to make changes to a road near me: https://www.dorsetcouncil.gov.uk/news/new-safety-measures-planned-for-a30-after-recent-fatalities there are a group of people who are insistent it all the fault of speeding and want the road speed lowered with some even suggesting it should be 30 all the way (I know right now who those drivers are), trying to inject some reason and suggesting there are other factors like poor driving involved has got all kinds of snarky and nasty responses and calling my comments ridiculous, etc. (sure that is Facebook to a degree but still).

I really feel like I've entered an alternative reality post COVID sometimes where people have completely lost their minds and can't see it.

I'm extremely against average speed cameras on that stretch because the hazards presented by poor drivers require a lot of attention (sure you could set a speed limiter but still) and you really don't want to have that extra consideration on your mind, but a certain minority are dead set on bringing in average speed cameras because they are totally convinced it is all down to speed.
 
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I find it genuinely baffling that you acknowledge - and regularly provide evidence of - poor standards of driving, but refuse to accept that lower speed limits are the best way to mitigate the effects.

It seems you think speed limits should be set to *your* perceived ability, but since that's clearly superior it only makes sense that a maximum based on the average driver must be lower.
 
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I find it genuinely baffling that you acknowledge - and regularly provide evidence of - poor standards of driving, but refuse to accept that lower speed limits are the best way to mitigate the effects.

It seems you think speed limits should be set to *your* perceived ability, but since that's clearly superior it only makes sense that a maximum based on the average driver must be lower.

This is a bad misinterpretation of what I've been posting and the reasons as to why so no wonder you are baffled.
 
You very obviously disagree with speed limits being lower than what *you* feel appropriate.

Please elaborate on how I'm misinterpreting this.
 
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You very obviously disagree with speed limits being lower than what *you* feel appropriate.

Please elaborate on how I'm misinterpreting this.

I disagree with speed limits being lowered as a knee jerk reaction and/or based on ideology/agenda and without the wider impact considered, often using faulty or misrepresented data to justify them - this includes justifications and/or reasons for lowering limits based on things like noise or emission factors. I don't have a problem with speed limits lowered where appropriate and it will make a real difference in tackling a problem - but far too often the knee jerk reaction is "the problem is people driving too fast" I feel because that means people can divest themselves of any responsibility to improve their own driving if they can hand wave the problem away to speeding drivers - I especially I find this attitude from people who drive considerably below the speed limit and conditions and refuse to take onboard that they can present just as much of a problem as people driving badly.

Personally I don't drive that fast, as I've mentioned often drive vehicles with lower speed limits than passenger cars, I'm very much in the average driver category for speed and ability - as can be seen in many of the dashcam videos I've uploaded - but I do actively try and improve my standard of driving as best I can.
 
Out of interest, do you have any examples of misinterpreted data that suggest that lower speeds don’t result in more serious accidents?
To clarify, this question isn’t about whether an is more likely, rather the impact from an accident.
 
Out of interest, do you have any examples of misinterpreted data that suggest that lower speeds don’t result in more serious accidents?
To clarify, this question isn’t about whether an is more likely, rather the impact from an accident.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking but first of all I'll say that reducing speed limits can work when tackling a specific hazard or more crucially to highlight a specific hazard - but you can't just slap them in indiscriminately and exploit the advantages of a lower limit and/or without considering the wider effect and/or without risking eroding the benefits of where those limits highlight a specific situation i.e. widespread indiscriminate use of 20 limits in Wales (though seeing that appears to be agenda lead they probably did realise the wider impact and were hoping to use it as an accelerant for future changes).

When I've looked at the studies used as justifications for lower limits such as wider use of 20s or reducing limits for noise and emissions I've often found that - for safety and other things like emissions:

- The numbers don't hold up in longer term data - with the studies often cutting off when despite an initial improvement the numbers creep back up again - but those studies are still used as justification for new lower limits.
- The exact same pattern is often happening elsewhere without those limits because it reflects a wider trend despite it looking like a win when used in isolation.
- Numbers in some studies correlate more to things like the increase in the number of vehicles on the road with more advanced safety features i.e. collision avoidance or better designed for pedestrian safety, the increase in EVs or the effect of changes in regulations to improve vehicle emissions.
- Replicating touted "lab results"/simulations in the real world often doesn't work i.e. due to there being a range of engines, gearing, loads and traffic conditions. An often overlooked aspect is that in lab results for emissions at different speeds the numbers aren't taking into effect aspects like in widespread 20 zones vehicles aren't reaching optimum temperature fast enough resulting in running less efficiently for longer periods with an also knock on environmental effect of people then having to replace components like EGRs more regularly.
- 20 zones often see a longer term complication with serious incidents and deaths involving cyclists including within the zone and within the general area - which often offsets the initial gains in reducing pedestrian incidents - I'm not entirely sure why but suspect it is a combination of a small to moderate increase in the number of cyclists, making a more dangerous situation when people who stick to the speed limit try to pass them with a now lower speed delta and that other surrounding areas haven't seen any changes to accommodate cyclists.

I'm not against lowering limits where that is done reasonably - though it can be a mixed story for example there are 2 crossroads/junction along a stretch of road near me which have had high incident rates:


Where they've reduced the limit to 30, at Horsecastles the first year has shown significant improvements and will likely hold up longer term, but at Dancing Hill (including the bridge before it) it hasn't tackled the root cause of problems and several serious incidents have happened since and without changes beyond just a speed limit change it likely won't solve the problem - but still a lot of people jump on the "must be people speeding causing the problem".

There is another junction near me where they've reduced the limit from 50 to 30 through that stretch after frequent serious collisions and so far there hasn't been any new serious incidents in quite awhile.

On the other hand (as linked in my post just above) there is a stretch of fast dual-carriageway near me with 2 crossroad junction, I'm quite familiar with one having had a few close calls there - so far none of them caused by myself. Where everyone is getting worked up about speed, wanting speed reductions [again], and a fair few people calling for average speed cameras but the problems won't be solved with any reasonable lower speed limits though lowering the limit (they've recently changed it from 70 to 60) will mitigate the severity and frequency of incidents a bit, many of the most serious accidents have been due to people either driving at high speed under the influence or poor driving i.e. not fully clearing the carriageway when pulled into the middle of the junction, etc. and average speed cameras just causes an extra consideration and potential penalty for innocent people without tackling the full scale of the problem.
 
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Instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, ie. the idiots that inhabit our roads, perhaps we should focus on improving the quality of our drivers?
 
Instead of catering to the lowest common denominator, ie. the idiots that inhabit our roads, perhaps we should focus on improving the quality of our drivers?

Problem is, and along with other changes which would help, it costs money to properly do so :( a lot of people drive ignorantly because there is a high chance they will get away with it.
 
Problem is, and along with other changes which would help, it costs money to properly do so :( a lot of people drive ignorantly because there is a high chance they will get away with it.

I mean start at the beginning. The driving instructors. Get them to start teaching people things like spatial and situational awareness, and how to drive "actively".

90% of the people on the roads here in Surrey could have a massive artic barreling towards them for three minutes honking and flashing and they wouldn't know until it hit them. Absolutely zero awareness around them.

Driving instructors in this country don't teach people how to drive, they teach them how to pass a test. It's embarrassing.
 
Driving instructors in this country don't teach people how to drive, they teach them how to pass a test. It's embarrassing.

I remember my driving instructor never actually taught me how to do a lot of stuff beyond what would get me through a test - my understanding of roundabouts, stuff my driving instructor could easily have imparted, improved considerably thanks to other people and/or my own attempts to improve my driving.

But ultimately people need to want to improve, or have a motivation to improve their standard of driving.
 
I'm not quite sure what you are asking but first of all I'll say that reducing speed limits can work when tackling a specific hazard or more crucially to highlight a specific hazard - but you can't just slap them in indiscriminately and exploit the advantages of a lower limit and/or without considering the wider effect and/or without risking eroding the benefits of where those limits highlight a specific situation i.e. widespread indiscriminate use of 20 limits in Wales (though seeing that appears to be agenda lead they probably did realise the wider impact and were hoping to use it as an accelerant for future changes).

When I've looked at the studies used as justifications for lower limits such as wider use of 20s or reducing limits for noise and emissions I've often found that - for safety and other things like emissions:

- The numbers don't hold up in longer term data - with the studies often cutting off when despite an initial improvement the numbers creep back up again - but those studies are still used as justification for new lower limits.
- The exact same pattern is often happening elsewhere without those limits because it reflects a wider trend despite it looking like a win when used in isolation.
- Numbers in some studies correlate more to things like the increase in the number of vehicles on the road with more advanced safety features i.e. collision avoidance or better designed for pedestrian safety, the increase in EVs or the effect of changes in regulations to improve vehicle emissions.
- Replicating touted "lab results"/simulations in the real world often doesn't work i.e. due to there being a range of engines, gearing, loads and traffic conditions. An often overlooked aspect is that in lab results for emissions at different speeds the numbers aren't taking into effect aspects like in widespread 20 zones vehicles aren't reaching optimum temperature fast enough resulting in running less efficiently for longer periods with an also knock on environmental effect of people then having to replace components like EGRs more regularly.
- 20 zones often see a longer term complication with serious incidents and deaths involving cyclists including within the zone and within the general area - which often offsets the initial gains in reducing pedestrian incidents - I'm not entirely sure why but suspect it is a combination of a small to moderate increase in the number of cyclists, making a more dangerous situation when people who stick to the speed limit try to pass them with a now lower speed delta and that other surrounding areas haven't seen any changes to accommodate cyclists.

I'm not against lowering limits where that is done reasonably - though it can be a mixed story for example there are 2 crossroads/junction along a stretch of road near me which have had high incident rates:


Where they've reduced the limit to 30, at Horsecastles the first year has shown significant improvements and will likely hold up longer term, but at Dancing Hill (including the bridge before it) it hasn't tackled the root cause of problems and several serious incidents have happened since and without changes beyond just a speed limit change it likely won't solve the problem - but still a lot of people jump on the "must be people speeding causing the problem".

There is another junction near me where they've reduced the limit from 50 to 30 through that stretch after frequent serious collisions and so far there hasn't been any new serious incidents in quite awhile.

On the other hand (as linked in my post just above) there is a stretch of fast dual-carriageway near me with 2 crossroad junction, I'm quite familiar with one having had a few close calls there - so far none of them caused by myself. Where everyone is getting worked up about speed, wanting speed reductions [again], and a fair few people calling for average speed cameras but the problems won't be solved with any reasonable lower speed limits though lowering the limit (they've recently changed it from 70 to 60) will mitigate the severity and frequency of incidents a bit, many of the most serious accidents have been due to people either driving at high speed under the influence or poor driving i.e. not fully clearing the carriageway when pulled into the middle of the junction, etc. and average speed cameras just causes an extra consideration and potential penalty for innocent people without tackling the full scale of the problem.

That’s interesting, but still not really answered the ask.
Could you please provide some links to data to backup the comments?
 
That’s interesting, but still not really answered the ask.
Could you please provide some links to data to backup the comments?

I don't have one concise set of data that would satisfy your request - I spent quite a bit of time looking into it some years back which I posted some of it in bits and pieces in this and related threads.
 
I don't have one concise set of data that would satisfy your request - I spent quite a bit of time looking into it some years back which I posted some of it in bits and pieces in this and related threads.

If the data was from a few years ago, might not be so relevant now.
This is an official set from the government, so it’s likely to have been compiled by someone who genuinely understands data analysis:


It’s quite interesting
 
If the data was from a few years ago, might not be so relevant now.
This is an official set from the government, so it’s likely to have been compiled by someone who genuinely understands data analysis:


It’s quite interesting

It also is part of what I've been using - showing that often the trends associated with reduced speed limit schemes and touted as evidence of them working are sometimes no different to the overall trends as seen in other areas as well. It also shows the effects of COVID which in some cases intentionally or unintentionally were used in studies of 20 zones, etc. to show an improvement despite not holding up once things returned to normal.
 
evidence is from abroad as much as anything , it's the criteria for selecting the roads they are being applied to (like the welsh labour councils choices) that should be questioned,
like are they in proximity to schools or their access routes or other vulnerable demographics ..
many of the ones in Cambridge&surrounding area I see, could just be applied during particular hours IF that could be policed
 
many of the ones in Cambridge&surrounding area I see, could just be applied during particular hours IF that could be policed

There are school zones around here which are part time and use illustrated signage to show when active and that works, pretty much no one exceeds them - one you have to be careful of though as that works when it is used sparingly but the effect gets diluted if slapped in anywhere.

One of the wider things which concerns me with all these rushes to special case speed reduction schemes, etc. is that the longer run bigger picture if we aren't careful is making the roads more complex with a patchwork of frequently changing speed limits which aren't necessarily intuitive. There are a few places around here where they are abrupt, unceremonious, 70 to 50 changes without any kind of feature distinction i.e. you aren't approaching a built up area or other recognisable reason for a speed limit change which is just odd and potentially easily missed - this one has several times nearly caught me out as it is easily forgotten about when you only do the road periodically and sometimes obscured by traffic until you are right on top of it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sMF2T8MHgVugLTPH9
 
...this one has several times nearly caught me out as it is easily forgotten about when you only do the road periodically and sometimes obscured by traffic until you are right on top of it: https://maps.app.goo.gl/sMF2T8MHgVugLTPH9

I find it hard to believe anyone* can nearly miss those once, let alone admit to it happening several times. The signs are clearly much higher than cars, and reasonably wide of the road so I can't see how they could be obscured by traffic from a significant distance unless you're driving right up the **** of a lorry.

It also seems perfectly obvious why the speed limit is being reduced there given the upcoming junction and subsequent M5 interchange. If the limit went straight from 70 to 40 I bet you'd complain that was too abrupt.


*other than SheffMan.
 
I mean start at the beginning. The driving instructors. Get them to start teaching people things like spatial and situational awareness, and how to drive "actively".

90% of the people on the roads here in Surrey could have a massive artic barreling towards them for three minutes honking and flashing and they wouldn't know until it hit them. Absolutely zero awareness around them.

Driving instructors in this country don't teach people how to drive, they teach them how to pass a test. It's embarrassing.
Instruction is not the issue I'm sure 99% of bad drivers know exactly what they're doing the lack of consequences is the problem theres almost zero chance of any of it resulting in any kind of penalty as traffic enforcement is almost non existent and I've seen enough poor driving this afternoon sunshine makes people think its fine to drive like baboons and get away with it
 
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I find it hard to believe anyone* can nearly miss those once, let alone admit to it happening several times. The signs are clearly much higher than cars, and reasonably wide of the road so I can't see how they could be obscured by traffic from a significant distance unless you're driving right up the **** of a lorry.

It also seems perfectly obvious why the speed limit is being reduced there given the upcoming junction and subsequent M5 interchange. If the limit went straight from 70 to 40 I bet you'd complain that was too abrupt.


*other than SheffMan.

It probably wasn't the best example but with the nature of traffic there at busy times (which is often when I'm going down to Exeter) it is often obscured by bigger vehicles and a lot of drivers don't bother slowing down until they are well passed it - whereas I like to bring my speed down before passing the signs.

EDIT: Unfortunately I don't have any other video of it saved to show what I mean but this does show how other people often approach it compared to myself:

Definitely one where I don't find the speed limit change intuitive, maybe due to the monotonous stretch of 70 leading up to it and relatively unceremonious change, and find it easy to forget that speed limit change is there and can catch me last minute if there is heavier traffic with vehicles obscuring the signs, though not the best example of what I was saying.
 
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