4p

[JonJ678]

That's a shame. I would liked to help put a comparison of the systems in the OP together. Evidently you are unwilling to do so, and would rather rely on remarkably scarse and occasionally unreliable benchmarks dredged from google.

I will deduce from this that you anticipate utter domination by the i7 system, as fear of an undesirable outcome is the most probable reason for avoiding competition.

I admit I am disappointed, as I believed you'd be keen to collect some original data to reason from considering the evident absense of alternative sources.

Perhaps it's that I've joined Easy on your ignore list.

 

[feeddagoat]

big why have you been ignoring JonJ678? Maybe with some data he provides you could do a price difference vs performance increase % graph from them. It would show your point in a nice picture form. Basically X= Y should equal a balanced increase of price for performance 1% increase in price brings 1% increase in performance. If it falls ouside this then itll be better prise vs performance or worse.

If you want I could benchmark a 620. Ive got one arriving hopefully tomorrow for that build we discussed. Just name the benchmarks and Ill run a few.

 

[bigjimmyauk]

big why have you been ignoring JonJ678? Maybe with some data he provides you could do a price difference vs performance increase % graph from them. It would show your point in a nice picture form. Basically X= Y should equal a balanced increase of price for performance 1% increase in price brings 1% increase in performance. If it falls ouside this then itll be better prise vs performance or worse

i too feel he should do the comparison in real world tests

you do come accross as being rather childish big wayne people have offered and offered to help you compile data but u just refuse or ignore

rather silly of you please contact me when you have come down from planet high and posted some more substantial results

 

[Fire Wizard]

Well although I am fearful to say it but sadly your post is off-topic, I am just comparing two specific pieces of hardware that are freely available for sale the world over. . . I don't see a problem with comparing two specific computers of my own choosing and *logically* looking at performance figures and cost ££ . . . as far as this thread is concerned there are only two systems under scrutiny, these are:

• INTEL® Core™ i7 920
• AMD® Athlon™ II X4 620

I'm sorry but my post is not off-topic. It's perfectly acceptable for threads to have side discussions providing the basis of them is relevant and disputing your comparison methods, which is very much the basis of the discussion of this thread, since I feel it doesn't give a true representation of the *value* of an Intel Core i7 920 based system and it's possibly giving people the wrong idea, is completely relevant.

I'm aware that you know about one of them but I gather you are not aware of the other? . . . both are *very* decent bits of kit and both *very* desirable to different people for different reasons . . . both processors mentioned above are being compared in the hope that any potential buyers can make an *informed* purchasing decision before spending more of their hard earned cash than is needed.

I am fully aware of both processors and depending on the users needs, they will be compared with other processors which are around the same type of performance and the one which is the better choice will be recommended.

I would respectfully point out that even though your statement above address's hardware that is beyond the scope of this discussion in the end part you make a claim and then wrongfully attempt to place the burden of proof on me when in fact it lay with you . . . as you are the one making the claim . . .

You have appeared to turn a relatively simple answer into a complicated one and I feel the reason being is because you are not willing to simply state the Intel Core i7 920 is the faster processor over the AMD Phenom II X4 965. I am indeed making the claim that the Intel Core i7 920 is the faster processor but that claim is based on fact and I am sure you are more than aware of this but simply do not want to accept / admit it.

Nothing has been deliberately done, I simply asked people for their opinions? . . . I came across the comparison of these two specific systems by chance and after examining the performance differences between the two I was quite puzzled & shocked in equal measure . . . now may I respectfully point out that again your statement is a logical fallacy, specifically Argumentum ad hominem . . . my motives or intentions are entirely irrelevant to this discussion, my point stands, please attack the argument and not me.

I'm sorry that you feel it was an attack on yourself. However, I can safely say that it was not in any shape or form an attack, but an observation.

I'm sorry you feel that way Fire Wizard but my comparison methods has served me well these past 15 years and I reserve the right to *champion* the Bang-For-Buck mantra, I am examining two objects that perform almost identical functions and I am asking my fellow forum members on their opinions with regards to Performance vs Cost ££ . . . For you to suggest I have given people the wrong opinion is again a logical fallacy, specifically Argumentum ad hominem and with all due respect I or my motives am not the subject of scrutiny here but these two pieces of hardware and their Price/Performance Ratio are

• INTEL® Core™ i7 920
• AMD® Athlon™ II X4 620

I'm afraid in this situation, your comparison methods have gone on to the point where you are potentially given people bad advice. (Please see the very last section where I have quoted you)

I'm glad to hear that and I never thought you would over-spec someone although I see it happen a lot around the forum . . . I do not know much about you or your hardware background and in fairness to yourself these have nothing to do with your contribution to this thread but I am left wondering if you are basing your posts on anything factual? . . . there seems to be a trace of innuendo in that you are suggesting the AMD® Athlon™ II X4 620 system is suitable only for "surfing the web, writing documents and light gaming" . . . that may or may not be what you are inferring so if I have that wrong then please accept my apologies! . . if however I am right then I do believe you are heavily under-esitimating the performance capabilities of AMD's latest and greatest!!!!

I feel the only reason why you think I am suggestion the AMD Athlon II X4 620 is only suitable for "surfing the web, writing documents and light gaming" is because you have thrown the Intel Core i7 920 processor along with the AMD Athlon II X4 620 processor into a room and locked the door. You are not willing to let anything else in and expand the discussion slightly. This can be done whilst retaining the basis of the thread.

To directly answer your question though, no, I was not suggestion the AMD Athlon II X4 620 is only suitable for "surfing the web, writing documents and light gaming" but simply stating if you do those sorts of tasks, you do not need an Intel Core i7 920 based system and a cheaper system will be absolutely fine. This is just a general comment and I am not specifying specific systems.

I am perfectly entitled to make a thread and discuss whatever hardware I choose although it seems my *specific* selection is not pleasing to some yet it is pleasing to others? . . . most confusing as it entirely logical and entirely legitimate . . . I would ask you kindly to either give me your opinion on the O.P or perhaps make a new thread discussing the validity of my comparison but anything else is not contributing to this one *specific* thread . . .

You are indeed. I am also perfectly entitled to question the basis of your discussion i.e. your comparison methods. I am not going to create a new thread to simply discuss why I disagree with your comparison methods when there's no reason I can't do that in this very thread. It's all relevant.

from a gamers perspective and from someone who is interested in getting the best value for money possible the best logical choice *if* buying new appears to be the AMD® Athlon™ II X4 620 . . . IMHO it makes the flagship product from the INTEL® Corporation look extremely overpriced! . . . but this thread is about other peoples opinions and not mine!

I'm afraid this is exactly the reason why your comparison method and the conclusion you have formed based on it is highly flawed. You have compared two processors from different points on the scale and since you feel the AMD Athlon II X4 620 is the better choice than the Intel Core i7 920, you have gone onto recommend the AMD Athlon II X4 620. However, you have completely ignored the Intel Core i3 530, which is roughly at the same point on the scale as the AMD Athlon II X4 620 but could *potentially* be the better choice.

 

[Big.Wayne]

Would you be so kind as to quote the section in the forum rules which justifies the above attack on Easy?

No swearing, posting of "adult" material, personal attacks or "trolling"

"We also expect members to behave respectfully and not launch personal or abusive attacks on other members. Those who post for the sole purpose of causing trouble are not welcome here and will be dealt with accordingly."

There really is no need for this Easy is merely trying to explain that for gaming [XYZ] is the way to go

Gentleman both,

I am versed in *logical* debate, I am not versed in broken bottles and spiked clubs . . .

If you will refere to my post here you will see what I am talking about

My learned friend does not deal in what is known as *logic* . . . . this isn't an opinion . . . this is a fact and let my post linked above bare witness to this truth . . .

His mistakes are many and numerous, nearly all of his posts are what's known as a Logical Fallacy which have no place is a debate based on *logic* . . . I'm sorry that you are unable to discern right from wrong, fact from fiction, truth from falsehoods but that does not mean we all have to reduce ourselves to this simple thinking . . . . Here's a breakdown of easyrider’s illogical approach to this debate:


Logical fallacy #1: Argumentum ad hominem
This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater

"I will denounce BS claims"

"Wayne your AMD spin is BS"

"wayne falsehoods"

"Stop licking the OP's ass and have your own opinion."

"FFS Wayne you are ruining the boards with this AMD level of psychophancy"

"It makes your BS post harder to quote."

"You sound like a religious nut...but its not god or humanity...its your ego and AMD"

"you sound like Born again Baldwin in the Big Brother House preaching the word of the lord"

"BS from Wayne"

"Run Forest Run "

"In Waynes world yes but in OCUK public forums...."

"Quite frankly a few pimping AMD post's on the internet are not going to change anything"

"However your like a drug pusher of AMD hardware and its not even that good in all honesty"

"You're dangerous!"

"Your post's are overlong and you repeat yourself all the time."

"And you lack self esteem"

"What is your true motive? "

"Big wayne you are full of ****"

"Congrats on giving BS advice on upgrades "

"Wayne Help him out He is nearly as blinkered as you if he wasn't drunk"

"Wayne gives as good has he gets. But when it comes to running out of debate and ideas he calls upon the old chestnut of trashing and baiting."

"This is pure arrogance imo"

"You can't handle the truth"


Solution: attack the argument and not the person, in this one specific thread the only attack possible from easyrider is to demonstrate through as much Empirical evidence as possible that the Intel® Core™ i7 *justifies* it's 100% price premium (or is that 156%) . . . I have nothing to do with the debate apart from asking the questions and helping keep on-topic . . .


Logical fallacy #2: Argumentum ad ignorantiam
This is the error of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false.
Solution: When making a claim about anything factual one must supply the burden of proof, in this example it is related to the off topic [XYZ] hardware that easyrider (and coupe69) keep banging on about like they know what they are talking about. The burden of proof is *not* three cherry picked screenshots posted off topic, it is a thread unto itself absolutely rammed with as much Empirical evidence as possible collected from across the web and by users of the forum, anything less is waffle/hearsay and does not constitute fact . . .


Logical fallacy #3: Argumentum ad nauseam
This is the error of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments, see #2Argumentum ad ignorantiam



F.A.O Overclockers.co.uk Public forums

Dear sirs,

I regret to inform you that unless some action is taken against the individual who posts on these forums using the pseudonym of easyrider then I will have no option but to initiate legal proceedings against said individual. He has turned into a cyber stalker and plagues me online with his cyber harassment. I have procured enough evidence dating back a few years to warrant a legal case. As much as everyone seems to think my encounters with said individual is "amusing" I find it quite distressing and there is no just reason this should continue, I have been a member of this community for several years (since 2003) and I have put my heart and soul into these forums in an attempt to build a good and decent community and I feel I am being subjected to unneeded abuse in what is meant to be a logical and technical forum. I would inform you that if the case goes to court there is a maximum sentence of 6 months imprisonment.

Although cyber stalking is a fairly new phenomenon, it's gradually being taken more seriously by the authorities, so there are people out there who can help.

As this Cyber-Crime is taking place on your forums there is implications to the owners of these forums also. In case you are not aware of this scenario I enclose the following links to bear witness to the truths I speak of:

Cyber-stalker faces sentencing today

Cyberstalker to spend six months in jail

Chilling' cyber stalker terrorised girl with Facebook death threats

Cyber stalker jailed

I have secured this individuals address via another member who has traded with him on the OcUK members market and would ask you kindly to take action within the next seven days or I will be forced to initiate legal proceeding. It's completely shocking that I have no option apart to send the man to jail when all I am here for is to learn about technology and serve my community . . .

Signed

Wayne Youngman
London
8th Feb 2010

 

[Warbie]

*slowly backs away from the thread*

 

[Meaker]

HOW ABOUT THAT ONE DON'T SEE THE I3 ******* ON THE 620'S FIRE THERE

i can't link the site but they are such a close match it's hardly worth squinting at

like how the linked picture is being blocked FFS copied to photo sharing site if that gets removed there must be a intel fanboy mod in here

In a test that loves HT, how about a game that dislikes HT and the really high latency memory controller thats on the GPU core?

OT:

Big.Wayne

Maybe you need your own forum? You know where you can actually be an admin that dictates the rules?

Although sometimes a male, Crybaby is usually a female, and often a close ally of Innocence Abused. When teased or attacked Crybaby will pitch a loud public temper tantrum, holding her breath and kicking her feet. If that defense fails she will run to Nanny for comfort.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/crybaby.htm

 

[NathanE]

I think everyone needs to calm down.

@easyrider: How about replacing "BS" with "FUD". It shouldn't rub people up the wrong way as much.

 

[ghop]

I still don't get what the point of comparing these 2 processors is There is no question that the i7 920 absolutely destroys the 620 at everything, especially when overclocked. Sure, not everyone will need this power and would be better off with an AMD 620, but isn't that a given? Wouldn't it be much smarter to compare the X4 620 with it's closest Intel competitor, the i3 530?

 

[JonJ678]

He is not posting here with the intent of causing trouble. He is trying to limit the potential damage done by this thread reading as "the i7 is far too expensive, whatever it is you're doing, you should buy the 620" which just isn't true. This is an extensive thread featuring some nominally knowledgable people, one of whom is arguing as sensibly as he can that the 620 is a great processor to buy. However there is a strong argument to be made that almost everything these days works better with a powerful dual core than with a weak quad core, and as such your refusal to let other hardware into the debate has made this thread into a bad thing.


Easyrider is not stalking you, or at least nothing in this thread could be construed as such. He is also generally calling your argument BS/Fud and not you. If there is a genuine problem here I would be happy to review some of the evidence with you, and if there is a case then the next step should be a cease and desist letter to Easy. Do you have an account on msn/skype/similar? I see you're quite distressed, and it would be a shame to see either you or Easy forced from these boards.


On the topic of the OP, you should be jumping at the chance to compare the two processors rather than ignoring every offer of data. That you are not suggests your motives are not as pure as you are implying.

If you want I could benchmark a 620. Ive got one arriving hopefully tomorrow for that build we discussed. Just name the benchmarks and Ill run a few.

Thank you for the offer, I would be most interested. I know very little about benchmarks (a chess one seems to have emerged recently?) but I imagine we can muddle along well enough. Will you be overclocking the new system? If so may I suggest a couple of benchmarks run at various specific frequencies, and the same benchmarks run at the same frequency on my system, followed by graphs for this thread? Overclocking results are always varied, so a clock for clock comparison is probably the most useful.

Could anyone reading this thread suggest a few sensible benchmarks?

 

[DavyBoy]

Are you being serious Wayne?!?!

Seems a little OTT doesn't it?

All easy is doing is trying to disprove your claims, and now you want to take the guy to court because you say he's harassing you???

Maybe it's just me, but lately your posts have been spooking me out mate, all this "logical fallacy", "argumentum ad blah de blahs", and all that talk of your "socratic methods" or whatever is kinda freaky wayne, I don't recall you using terms like this in the past, and all the different colored text in your posts to highlight certain areas is just plain odd imo..

I mean who posts in that manner on an overclocking forum?

I don't mean anything bad by this mate, I just get a little freaked out by your posting style recently... is everything OK??

 

[eyetrip]

ffallic, there is a lot wrong with your post and I do not wish to admonish you but I feel it is my duty . . . firstly and *most* importantly you have the sides all wrong, it is not AMD vs Intel . . . it is us the people vs the huge nameless, soulless corporations that attempt to dictate to us what we need and what we should buy and what the price is . . . I have picked the lesser of the two evils to pit against the giant that is Intel® Corporation . . . I forgive you for making the incorrect assumption that this is one of the old classic Intel® vs AMD® flame wars but it is not, I have transcended that divide and conquer mentality that has been imposed on us so that we cannot logically discern right from wrong and continually squabble and bicker while the truth remains elusive. . . let this thread bear witness to that truth . . . I am honestly trying to unite us for the greater good and would ask you kindly to realise I have your well being and the well being of all my community as the highest priority. I would be grateful if you could join in this discussion without any bias except that which I have already spoke of and perhaps together as a group we can reach a satisfying conclusion . . .

I have noted that in your past remarks spread across many threads you seem to detract from the conversation with negative remarks but fail to inject anything positive, there is scope for improvement here and I would urge you to rethink the situation . . . I come in peace and I want the best for all of us, I hope my passion and enthusiasm does not offend you as that is not what I would want but at the same time I do not wish to reduce my capacity to be passionate and enjoy life in order that others do not feel lacking . . .

In regard to you comments on wanting to become part of the Intel® Corporation marketing force I believe you already are . . .although amusingly you are unaware of this!

OK, so it's not an Intel vs AMD thing? But about evil corprations charging more for better products?

OK, so why do AMD have a Phenom 2 X4 965? It costs more than the 620, and even though it performs better, surely by your logic AMD shouldn't be charging more for it cause the 620 is enough for everything.

Intel are a business, AMD are a business. Neither cares about the people that buy their products. They care about the bottom line.

You think AMD woudn't charge more if they could?

Your'e not doing anybody any favours with this thread. You aren't trying to unite anyone, or work towards any greater good. You have an agenda, in my opinion.

And if you think I am baised, you are wrong. I am looking to put together a new system for my other half, and am looking to do an AMD system? Why, because for their usage it will be more sensible.

Why did I go Intel for mine? Because for my usage it was the more sensible option.

You think my posts are off the mark and add nothing? Well, that's exactly how I feel about this thread. I try to ignore it, but it's like a scab that I feel the need to keep picking at, because it's itchy and annoying.

Your passion and enthusiasm do not offend me. But I do get riled by silliness.

Why not head over to the motor section and start telling them that sports cars make no sense and that a golf should be enough for everyone?

Or head over to the home theatre section and tell them that speakers are speakers and spending thousands on a Bose system is pointless and they should just get the cheapest they can find?

Why because for the people who wnat those things, the price premium is worth it. A processor inside a computer is no different.

Want a cheap quad, get an AMD. Want the better quad, get the Intel.

 

[Trunks9486]

Benchmarks eh? Loads of those around.

Try the 3dmarks if you can (any and all versions welcome). This should give an idea on how it performs with games from different periods, at least on a theoretical manner. I am not sure how many games have standalone benchmarks, i think Fear did?

WPrime instead of SuperPi. The chess benchmark seems fine. Any web browser tests maybe? Something that simulates usual environment of a user.

From what i have seen, i3 will generally offer better gaming performance for games limited to two cores. HT will help but as far i have seen it is not a substitute for true cores. Therefore any game making extensive use of the 4 cores will be faster on the athlon.

Wayne: I get your point about "enough" performance, but usually people, especially here have a set budget and get the best they can afford. Thats consumerism i guess and marketing working its magic. A few years ago an Athlon X4 would be considered top of the range for everything, but right now because there is something better it doesnt seem so amazing.

 

[DavyBoy]

You think AMD woudn't charge more if they could?

LoL, they charge plenty of £££ for their graphics cards!

 

[JonJ678]

On a similar note to Davys, I'm not sure strict adherence to the rules of classical logic is a useful thing for a debate. I quite like the different coloured text though. I also hope things are alright at your end.

For that matter, if Easy is thoroughly unsettled by the threat of legal action (most non-lawyers would be I think), then I'm equally happy to speak to him away from these boards.

Cheers Trunks, I'll look into WPrime and 3dmarks.

 

[craptakular]

If both the 620 and i7 920 were given away free I would have the i7 as it's faster. This thread isn't soley based on raw performance power, if it was I wouldn't have the i7 920 I would have Intels fastest i7 chip.


The thread is about performance AND cost. Thats how I have interpreted the thread.

I'm not posting on this topic anymore, at the end of the day it's just a compluter. We should enjoy life and not bicker over a god damn cpu, hell I bet none of us work for Intel or AMD so why should we argue? We have all bought what we have bought because we feel it meets our needs and our wallets best.

/Close thread tbh.

 

[feeddagoat]

He is not posting here with the intent of causing trouble. He is trying to limit the potential damage done by this thread reading as "the i7 is far too expensive, whatever it is you're doing, you should buy the 620" which just isn't true. This is an extensive thread featuring some nominally knowledgable people, one of whom is arguing as sensibly as he can that the 620 is a great processor to buy. However there is a strong argument to be made that almost everything these days works better with a powerful dual core than with a weak quad core, and as such your refusal to let other hardware into the debate has made this thread into a bad thing.


Easyrider is not stalking you, or at least nothing in this thread could be construed as such. He is also generally calling your argument BS/Fud and not you. If there is a genuine problem here I would be happy to review some of the evidence with you, and if there is a case then the next step should be a cease and desist letter to Easy. Do you have an account on msn/skype/similar? I see you're quite distressed, and it would be a shame to see either you or Easy forced from these boards.


On the topic of the OP, you should be jumping at the chance to compare the two processors rather than ignoring every offer of data. That you are not suggests your motives are not as pure as you are implying.



Thank you for the offer, I would be most interested. I know very little about benchmarks (a chess one seems to have emerged recently?) but I imagine we can muddle along well enough. Will you be overclocking the new system? If so may I suggest a couple of benchmarks run at various specific frequencies, and the same benchmarks run at the same frequency on my system, followed by graphs for this thread? Overclocking results are always varied, so a clock for clock comparison is probably the most useful.

Could anyone reading this thread suggest a few sensible benchmarks?

I wasn't intending on OC'ing it but I could maybe apply a small increase just to see how it turns out. Maybe push it over 3Ghz. ATM the order says in Warehouse queue. Is there any benchmarks anyone is really interested in? CPC/bit-tech have one that uses GIMP to edit several photographs, then it encodes using handbrake then while the video plays back it zips a large batch of files. Each test is for photo editing, encoding and multitasking using real world apps. Cine and 3D mark are another two I would run.

 

[eyetrip]

/Close thread tbh.

Agreed.

 

[ghop]

Dear sirs,

I regret to inform you that unless some action is taken against the individual who posts on these forums using the pseudonym of easyrider then I will have no option but to initiate legal proceedings against said individual. He has turned into a cyber stalker and plagues me online with his cyber harassment. I have procured enough evidence dating back a few years to warrant a legal case. As much as everyone seems to think my encounters with said individual is "amusing" I find it quite distressing and there is no just reason this should continue, I have been a member of this community for several years (since 2003) and I have put my heart and soul into these forums in an attempt to build a good and decent community and I feel I am being subjected to unneeded abuse in what is meant to be a logical and technical forum. I would inform you that if the case goes to court there is a maximum sentence of 6 months imprisonment.

Although cyber stalking is a fairly new phenomenon, it's gradually being taken more seriously by the authorities, so there are people out there who can help.

As this Cyber-Crime is taking place on your forums there is implications to the owners of these forums also. In case you are not aware of this scenario I enclose the following links to bear witness to the truths I speak of:

Cyber-stalker faces sentencing today

Cyberstalker to spend six months in jail

Chilling' cyber stalker terrorised girl with Facebook death threats

Cyber stalker jailed

I have secured this individuals address via another member who has traded with him on the OcUK members market and would ask you kindly to take action within the next seven days or I will be forced to initiate legal proceeding. It's completely shocking that I have no option apart to send the man to jail when all I am here for is to learn about technology and serve my community . . .

Signed

Wayne Youngman
London
8th Feb 2010

You're not going to get anywhere like this.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I'm going to close this thread for the time being.