>500m Wireless Options

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 18:49

Ubiquiti - Fibre broadband on a rural farm. Wireless >500 metres

I am in the process of moving from a mid terraced city house which has been blessed with a 150mbit connection for several years, to a farmhouse with "up to" 2mbit...

I cannot accept this.

The closest village is served by VM fibre, with the closest property ~580m away from my house. VM have quoted me a 5 figure sum to run a cable to my property, something I will not be doing so I have started to look into wireless options.

The plan:

1) Get friendly with the closest residents.
2) Install VM modem at their property, perhaps in an external cabinet.
3) Link up modem to microwave satellite on one of their walls
4) Have receiving satellite at my farm house
5) 152mbit broadband to my home

Does anyone have any experience with a setup like this? I'm quite excited to set all this up. I'll reply shortly with some hardware that I have found so far.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:15

Caged said:
Do you have line of sight?

Yes. Forogot to mention. There is a small woodland between the two properties but there is a clearing where the electricity cables run through.

George Hincapie said:
Why would you want to move somewhere with crap internet? Life is too short; either stay where you are or negotiate with VM to install the cable for less.

You're joking right? Obviously it's personal preference, but I would argue that life was too short to stay in a tiny mid terraced house for the sake of a good internet connection.. but that's just me. One day I might be in a position to pay for cable but for now if there is a cheaper alternative, I'll consider it.

Edit: to add, virgin media are very reluctant to spend any money connecting one house. If they spent £5k, it would take them 12 years to just get their money back @£35/month.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:36

Lol. Yeh, let's hope they understand the importance of good internet.

I think some sort of contract would be a good idea. At this stage I need to get some sort of idea of what equipment is needed, whether it is actually practical and financially feasible.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:54

Hyburnate said:
Without going into specifics on a public forum, currently at work we're installing external AP antennas, they run into ££££ each and are nowhere near capable of 500m.

These antennas connect onto a AP inside (almost like a splitter) I'm unsure on the cost of that.

I guess one difference here would be that you are providing devices capable of a radius where as I am looking for point to point connectivity, which I'm assuming needs a lot less power to transmit up to 500m.

I am currently looking into some products by Ubiquiti. Specifically looking at the NanoBeam 5AC 19, their calculator suggests upto 60.55 Mbit @ 5ghz. Early days.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:59

Caged said:
It's time to trot out the good old fashioned pair of Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M5 suggestion. Just make sure you keep the fresnel zone clear.

You won't get 150Mbps throughput, but you should have no issues getting 120.

Well at least I'm looking in the right area!

Should be able to. While there is that woodland to contend with, and I am limited to a height of ~7metres at the third parties property, I have a no real height restrictions on my own property.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 21:14

Caged said:
7 metres should be fine at 5Ghz.

The NanoBeam AC units will do a decent job as well, they just cost a touch more for a small improvement.

It will work fine on a technical level, the biggest issue will be sorting it out with your neighbour and how VM bill it, since it won't be your address on the account.

Yeh. They can be real funny about it too. I wanted to have two separate connections at a previous house once, one for me and one for my house mate. They flat out wouldn't do it. Now granted I didn't try too hard but they basically said they would not do it unless the house was registered as two addresses eg 33a & 33b...

Ultimately it all depends on this third party, though there are a few other houses I can try. The nice thing about these Ubiquiti products is their quite good looking and reasonably discrete.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 21:42

Just spoke to a very enthusiast Filipino chap at VM named Win; he introduced himself "my name is Win, as in Winning!".. brilliant.. Anyway, he confirmed they would have no problem setting up a connection at a third party address. It would be what's known as a duplicate account but as long as it is two different billing addresses and two different services, they are happy to do it (obviously with the permission of the actual occupier). He also told me that that house is currently connected.. not sure if he should have told me that..

I might offer some sort of financial incentive to the thirdparty but naturally I will wait to see how they respond to the request first.

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 21:59

Caged said:
I am reasonably sure that as soon as you actually start the order process your dreams will be shattered. But hey there might be hope.

Do you mean in terms of cost?

Larry365 · 25 Aug 2015 at 22:38

Caged said:
No just that the VM guy on the live chat probably had no idea what you were even asking but just wanted to say yes lots of times.

ah right, yeh this is entirely possible!

So think its definitely possible to get the bandwidth I need, with low latency, but what I am worried about is packet loss. I play a lot of games so this is quite a big one.

There are a few things I can think of that might effect it. Signal interruption from nearby overhead power cables..? Bad weather? and just the way this devices work.

I have sent an email to Ubiquiti putting in all my requirements so it will be interesting to see which product they suggest and their opinions on latency and packet loss.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 08:57

Ok well this sounds promising. Like you, I have line of sight but the fresnel zone is a bit iffy. I'll be getting a 150/15 FTTH so it sounds like the Loco M5s might not be quite up to the task of carrying as close to 150 over 450m. Great to hear from someone with first hand experience of a similar situation

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 10:55

I have considered 4g. I did a speed test with EE and I can get 20/7. Using bonding tech, I could reach ~80. However the biggest problem with this approach is cost and total bandwidth. I would hit quotas in a couple of days and spend in 2 months what vm would cost for a year. Good thinking for a regular setup but my internet usuage is well above average.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 11:46

lude1962 said:
Do the other properties back onto yours?
If so get a fibre transceiver (in a small solar powered cabinet)and run your own fibre to the farmhouse.

Its 500m away across two fields. It's something I considered. I own a mini digger so I could get the trench dug at cost. The cost of the cable would be >£800 and thats just the standard stuff. Armoured cable must be at least half again.

If I find after a few months that this wireless solution is not working for me when I will probably go down this route.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 14:08

DrBombcrater said:
Zero chance of that as the M5 is limited by its 100Mbit Ethernet port. You would probably need something like the Nanobeam ac to get actual uni-directional 150MBit throughput, those have GBit Ethernet ports and higher performance wireless than the Nanostations and if memory serves they go for around £90 each.

Yeah looks like I'll be going for the Nanobeam 5ac. I'm just about to go out to talk with the neighbours. VM have provisionally agreed to offer a discount to the third party if they allow my connection off their premises. This took two hours to negotiate between 3 different people at VM, but I wanted to approach the third party with some ammunition and incentives.

If they agree then I can start assessing the site and getting getting a decent look at the LOS. There is a clearance through the woods where the overhead power cables run through, I'm now a bit concerned that the telegraph poles themselves will cause an issue. I need to figure out how high I need to go at my end to clear the (reasonably low) tree line... rather mature hedge line. The fresnel zone is only about 1.2m over 500m (I think) so I'm hoping the clearing will be sufficient.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 15:09

Armageus said:
Ouch - just done a quick quote - £1687 for 500m Preterm armoured 4 core OM3.

Yeh not cheap although VM did say they would be able to do something for me if I were to dig the trench, so they will prob be able to supply cable at half that price.. maybe even for free.

mrkev said:
What about OM2? Max length is 550m if running at 1Gb/s and a lot more if sticking to slower speeds.

Definitely an option but its the trench part thats putting me off. I have just learned that the two fields between the houses are owned by two separate people, so it thats 4 parties total... it all gets a bit silly after a while.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 19:55

Ok, so the good news is, the closest neighbour is absolutely fine with the idea and will accept nothing more than a crate of beer; good chap! He isnt currently with VM so I will be using his existing inlet. If he wants to switch to VM then he can a £5/month discount and £50 back from the "refer a friend" deal.

Below are two pictures of the LOS. Basically these poles run directly from the ideal position for the Nanobeam, straight to my farm. As you can see, the clearing around the cables is pretty good and I should have no problem being able to clear a little more around them if I need to. Does anyone know how I can effectively test to see if I can get a good signal between the poles and the trees?

There is an alternative if I cant go through the trees. There is a 4g antenna on a pole in the perfect position to bounce the signal around the woodland (see first pic). I have spoken to the land owner who has no problems with me accessing this antenna, however it is ultimately the decision of the antenna owner. The best thing about being able to use this antenna pole is that it has mains power. I have my doubts as to whether they will allow and installation here however. Obviously I will need access to the antenna if there is a problem, and this is something I can't imagine they will grant. We'll call it plan B.

Thanks for you help so far guys. This is a great thread.

View from transmitting end. Distance: ~270m

View from receiving end. Distance: ~100m (roughly 60m of woodland)

"bounce off" pole. 220m + 380m

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 20:29

Caged said:
Assuming that 4G site is owned by one of the major phone networks then there is no chance you will ever be able to put anything on it and power it. Shooting it between the trees will be fine.

Ok. Well I guess its time to commit to buying a pair of Nanobeams. Before committing with VM, I'll get them set up and run some tests. Just waiting to here back from another forum. I'll keep this thread going with updates and I'll no doubt have a billion questions about the networking side of things.

Larry365 · 26 Aug 2015 at 21:51

My mortgage is absolutely maxed and given how long it took to secure it, I don't want to contact them unless I have to. The more I think about it now, the more I'm wondering whether to go the cable route. I already own a minidigger so that option is too difficult. I'll have a think.

The thing is, the wireless option is a very cheap option and I kind of just need something for the time being, with a view to come back to the cable option later down the line.

All the comments about vegetation, I've considered myself. I need to get an idea of how high I need to go at my end to clear the veg. I have a barn that is about 3 floors high at the pitch so that might help.

At 2.4ghz and width of 40mhz, the fresnel is at 1m. Surely that will make the gap.

Larry365 · 27 Aug 2015 at 11:22

Steveocee said:
You mean you haven't yet checked? Best thing you can do is get on the roof of that thing with a pair of binoculars and see what you can see. A pole attached to the barn will give you more height, with a 3 story barn you could probably get away with a monster of a pole on that.

We don't get the keys till Tuesday so there's only so much I've been able to do. Yeh, should be able to get something substantial. The roof and gable end are asbestos which makes things a bit difficult.

Larry365 · 27 Aug 2015 at 20:53

Caged said:
That sounds wrong

Thats according to airlink.ubnt.com.. 1m-1.2m or thereabouts.

Larry365 · 28 Aug 2015 at 20:30

So the issue with running any sort of wire is getting the wire buried. This would require permission from 3 land owners, digging through woodland and going deep enough to avoid ploughs. There is also the cost. Now VM did say to me "if you dig the trench, we'll be able to sort something out with the cable".. I need to get back to them and find out exactly what he meant by that. If they can supply the cable for free (maybe?) then it MIGHT be an option.

Anyway, I went back to the house today (don't move in till next week) and noticed another pole. I've created this little work of art to illustrate plan 2.0.

Is this a viable solution? assuming permission to mount and a power supply running to the pole. It will be mounted high so vehicles do not block signal. Bare in mind this is a very quiet country road with no more than about 10 cars per day. Can a signal be bounced like this and at this angle? If this is possible, are there any possible problems with this setup. I'm wondering whether two wire connected devices would need fitting on the BT pole, one facing transmitting and one facing received.

What do we all think?