5Ghz Amd & Intel (speculation topic)

[humbug]

@humbug lol, so anyone you don't agree with is a "sleazebag"?
Funny how all of the very thorough review sites are wrong, and whatever random lad on youtube who gets benchmarks close to your biases is right

No, people who blatantly assume their readers are of lesser intelligence than them selves and then use that to try and manipulate them are sleazebags.

 

[jigger]

I remember people getting them to 5GHz - and they still didn't compete with a Core 2 Duo.

No they didn't, but that wasn't the point. Even a chip derived from the dog Pentium with all its cockups and terrible design choices showed promise.

 

[smilingcrow]

It could happen. The tree huggers would get upset but Intel already build chips that are performance focused. Some of the Xeons are beasts and those chips are still well and truly shackled.

Shackled in what way?
IBM make some monster chips with extreme hyper threading and high TDPs but are they really any good for desktop usage?
If no one is making a highly optimized desktop CPU, which you’d need to quantify, then maybe it’s because it’s either not currently feasible or financially viable.
It will probably take moving away from Silicon for desktop CPUs to make a large jump in general performance outside of multi-core and AVX type gains.

 

[humbug]

Some Context to this, its not entirely fanciful, in fact its very real.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/technology-solutions/cmos/performance/7nm-finfet


On the left their current 14nm LPP FinFet, its designed to run at 3Ghz operation, this does not mean 3Ghz is its maximum operating frequency, its simply that this is its optimal power to performance ratio, AMD have one CPU which operates at the 3Ghz frequency, the R7 1700 This is a 65 Watt CPU, which for an 8 core 16 thread CPU with an IPC between Haswell and SkyLake/KabyLake/CoffeeLake is impressive, at least in my opinion.
Other CPU's in the lineup are effectively overclocked, to do that is actually very common these days for all 3 semiconductor giants, AMD/Intel/nVidia

AMD current problem is two fold, they do still have an IPC Deficit to Intel, all be it a small one to CoffeeLake and it seems only in low threaded situations, AMD actually has better Simultaneous multi-threading than Intel so where that is the deciding factor AMD's performance is right up at least on par with Intel's CoffeeLake.

The IPC difference between Ryzen and CoffeeLake really is give and take. personally i don't think that's actually a problem, i think people just like to point at performance differences and call it IPC when in fact that difference is nothing like a subtle as that, its blatantly a clock speed difference, even reviewers who i respect and trust do this when they really should know better but actually don't.

Which brings me to AMD's real problem Ryzen vs CoffeeLake, Intel's 16nm is far more mature than Globalfoundries, their operating frequency design is probably 4Ghz or more, so their CPU's are able to run at much higher frequency, as high as 4.7Ghz provided you have adequate cooling, that's a massive 30% higher clock speed out of the box than AMD's 3.6Ghz Ryzen 1800X.

AMD have said Ryzen is worst case scenario, I agree, its a brand new immature architecture built on a brand new immature processing node not designed for products like Ryzen, i think AMD did remarkably well to get it all to come together and work, a lot of experts said it never would, there was a lot of nay saying with Ryzen that it would never happen even close to AMD's claims, it exceeded those claims, a target of 40% IPC gain over Excavator turned into 52%, 70%+ over the FX series, 2.8Ghz on all cores turned into 3.6Ghz+, a maximum of 2.6Ghz Ram turned into 3.0Ghz to 3.2Ghz common and i have seen as high as 3.6Ghz, AMD's SMT wouldn't be as good as Intel's because Intel have 15 years experience with it, its actually better.

So what next? if you look on the right hand side you will see Globalfoundries new 7nm LP FinFet, this is what Zen 2 will be built on. its operating frequency is 5Ghz, thats way faster than CoffeeLake.

AMD have said there will also be a small IPC bump with Ryzen+

So the prospect is a CoffeeLake IPC+ 5Ghz out of the box Ryzen+ /2, the high end 'mainstream' may even be 16 Core 32 Thread as AMD seem to be moving to 16 Core 32 Thread CCX's.

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/canard-mentions-second-gen-epyc-if-true-nice.18798418/

 

[Jono8]

8 core , 16 thread 5ghz ryzen with CL ipc for under £500 (along with them fixing latency issues for DAW work) and i'm sold.

Not holding out huge amounts of hope for that though!

 

[AndreiD]

8 core , 16 thread 5ghz ryzen with CL ipc for under £500 (along with them fixing latency issues for DAW work) and i'm sold.

Not holding out huge amounts of hope for that though!

That would be a similar single core performance jump as Bulldozer -> Ryzen was, so fairly unrealistic.
My realistic expectation for Zen+ would be a 200~300Mhz extra clock wise and maybe some architectural improvements to the IMC/IF to get some easy IPC gains.

 

[gavinh87]

That would be a similar single core performance jump as Bulldozer -> Ryzen was, so fairly unrealistic.
My realistic expectation for Zen+ would be a 200~300Mhz extra clock wise and maybe some architectural improvements to the IMC/IF to get some easy IPC gains.

Indeed, I think 4.3-4.5 ghz are more realistic expectations.

 

[AndreiD]

I do hope they can reach higher and beat my expectations, it would be an amazing improvement and would actually be problematic for Intel, but realistically speaking...
I guess we'll see in a few months.

 

[Jono8]

I do hope they can reach higher and beat my expectations, it would be an amazing improvement and would actually be problematic for Intel, but realistically speaking...
I guess we'll see in a few months.

I really hope someone can do something in the CPU market because it is really bad. I want something to upgrade my 5820k from. Someone needs to bring out a reasonably priced 5ghz at stock 8 core cpu and fast

 

[jigger]

That would be a similar single core performance jump as Bulldozer -> Ryzen was, so fairly unrealistic.
My realistic expectation for Zen+ would be a 200~300Mhz extra clock wise and maybe some architectural improvements to the IMC/IF to get some easy IPC gains.

Who knows, but if I've learnt anything from AMD over the past few years it's to never write them off.

 

[jigger]

I really hope someone can do something in the CPU market because it is really bad. I want something to upgrade my 5820k from. Someone needs to bring out a reasonably priced 5ghz at stock 8 core cpu and fast

FX8 core sir

The CPU market is booming just now.

 

[Jono8]

FX8 core sir

The CPU market is booming just now.

Ok 5ghz but with decent IPC

Hopefully with Icelake and/or Zen 2 there might be something to tempt me.

 

[bru]

Anyone expecting Ryzen+ or even Ryzen 2 to be 5Ghz out of the box is living in dream world.
The current best is the 1800x 3.6 GET base 4.0 GHz boost.
It has taken Intel years and 7 generations to get to 3.7GHz base 4.7 boost. There is no way that AMD will get there in such a short time. Unless of course they throw the cooling and power consumption targets out the window, which to be fair, they have done before.

So maybe they will and i'm talking nonsense, but l certainly wouldn't Count on it.

 

[humbug]

Anyone expecting Ryzen+ or even Ryzen 2 to be 5Ghz out of the box is living in dream world.
The current best is the 1800x 3.6 GET base 4.0 GHz boost.
It has taken Intel years and 7 generations to get to 3.7GHz base 4.7 boost. There is no way that AMD will get there in such a short time. Unless of course they throw the cooling and power consumption targets out the window, which to be fair, they have done before.

So maybe they will and i'm talking nonsense, but l certainly wouldn't Count on it.

What was said about Zen was "Anyone expecting Zen to be more than 3Ghz and 40% IPC gain is living in dream world, AMD's SMT will not be anything like as good as Intel as it took them 15 years to get it to where it is"

Perfectly reasonable assertion to make on the face of it, its a Samsung 3Ghz process, 40% IPC gain has never been achieved from one generation to the next and it looks fanciful, and yes Intel do have 15 years more experience than AMD with SMT.

So what actually happened?

IPC gain was actually 52%
Clock Speed is actually 3.7Ghz on all cores before overclocking.
AMD's SMT is better than Intel's

AMD have a history of making those commenting on AMD 'proclaiming themselves as experts' look like idiots.

Never say never.

 

[gavinh87]

What was said about Zen was "Anyone expecting Zen to be more than 3Ghz and 40% IPC gain is living in dream world, AMD's SMT will not be anything like as good as Intel as it took them 15 years to get it to where it is"

Perfectly reasonable assertion to make on the face of it, its a Samsung 3Ghz process, 40% IPC gain has never been achieved from one generation to the next and it looks fanciful, and yes Intel do have 15 years more experience than AMD with SMT.

So what actually happened?

IPC gain was actually 52%
Clock Speed is actually 3.7Ghz on all cores before overclocking.
AMD's SMT is better than Intel's

AMD have a history of making those commenting on AMD 'proclaiming themselves as experts' look like idiots.

Never say never.

Can we have a wager on this? I'm willing to put money that AMD won't be hitting 5ghz on ryzen 2.

 

[Rroff]

Can we have a wager on this? I'm willing to put money that AMD won't be hitting 5ghz on ryzen 2.

Depends who is producing it - TSMC 7nm in testing has achieved well above 4GHz in the kind of ballpark of a product like a desktop CPU while by all reports GF like 14nm isn't doing great for frequency scaling.

EDIT:

AMD sticking with GF for the next round of CPUs and GPUs transitioning to 12nm LP.
AMD moving some APU and console related production to TSMC 12FF.
nVidia have early access to TSMC 7nm HP with some exclusivity
"5GHz" Zen family products on GF aren't likely to appear before the end of the first half of 2019.

 

[humbug]

Can we have a wager on this? I'm willing to put money that AMD won't be hitting 5ghz on ryzen 2.

One member here already owes me his Broadwell-E Desktop making a series of assertions like that about Zen, now we hardly ever see him and he still has his Dektop, no. I'm not going to hold him to it, its not something that's possible to do anyway.

 

[gavinh87]

One member here already owes me his Broadwell-E Desktop making a series of assertions like that about Zen, now we hardly ever see him and he still has his Dektop, no. I'm not going to hold him to it, its not something that's possible to do anyway.

That was for 3866 memory I believe?
I'll hold my end of the bargain. £100 says ryzen 2 won't be doing 5ghz 24/7

 

[triss]

I'll be reasonable happy if ryzen + in february goes 4.3ghz+ stock on 8 cores with some wiggle room to overclock. ST performance is what stops me upgrading atm and no while i did look at coffee lake its not really what i want long term.

 

[Mercutio]

I'll be reasonable happy if ryzen + in february goes 4.3ghz+ stock on 8 cores with some wiggle room to overclock. ST performance is what stops me upgrading atm and no while i did look at coffee lake its not really what i want long term.

I'd... be surprised if that isn't what we're looking at for Pinnacle Ridge. 10% performance improvement is generally quoted (from an AMD slide) going from 14 to 12nm so 3.9/4ghz becomes 4.3 to 4.4 at the top end.