Poll: 60fps vs 30fps
- Thread starter dirtydog
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Nickg said:
ok i didnt mean to say there was no technical difference. What im trying to say is that the 30fps cap isnt necessarily the reason for games not being smooth.
see my above post about PGR2 which was capped at 30fps and is a dream to play.
Whilst 60fps will obviously decrease the chances of stuttering game play i wouldnt say that 30fps means that the game play WILL stutter.
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hmm shame then that your not the only one with an opinion. because you are happy does not mean that the rest of the world is happy also.
as said above, go and test and see what you think. then i believe you will be in a better position to post a more authorative response.
as said above, go and test and see what you think. then i believe you will be in a better position to post a more authorative response.
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Nickg said:
but why arent you happy? if GOW plays smooth so that it doesnt detract from game play then why does it matter that its at 30fps? It doesn't.
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SoapSurgeon said:
i havent played it.
have you tried it at 60fps? if not then how can you know whether what your being sold is good enough, or whether it could be "better"
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of course it could be better! no game is perfect. I will know if what i am being sold is good enough if it plays well and doesnt stutter.
The majority of console gamers might not necessarily know about frames per second etc so will only complain if the game is unplayable not if someone tells them its running at 30fps
The majority of console gamers might not necessarily know about frames per second etc so will only complain if the game is unplayable not if someone tells them its running at 30fps
Whatever you beleive, 576i (interlaced) can only show 30fps (PAL60).. it cannot show any more.. that's a fact..
so a supposed 60fps game over 576i/480i cannot show 60fps no matter how much you think it does..
However, I do agree that you should just about be able to see the difference between 30 and 60fps on a display capable of actually displaying 60fps (any 576p/720p/1080p set do), but that difference is extremely minor, and to most almost indistinguishable.. it isn't really the fps that makes it smoother.. and here's why
In answer to the comparison of games.. well, looking back to PGR2/GT or similar, if you look at the graphics make up, all the 30fps titles have two things that would make any slow down in frame rate/30fps issues much more obvious
1. Lots of 'close' detail.. having lots of 'hard' vertical edges close in the field of view means any panning shots will exxagerate any fps issues.. if it's just some rocks/mountains much further away with soft edges, this can hide panning stutter quite well. As an example, take a ruler and put it 10cm away from your eyes, and move it at speed accross your field of view.. it appears to stutter.. now get someone to move it 1M away, and waft it from side to side.. you will see that when up close you don't get a smooth effect, but when 1M away you do..
2. The colours are a little muted, again any contrasting areas give your eye something to notice any fps issues on.. on quite low contrast games (GT/RR) there is less for the eye to use as a point of reference..
I've noticed that all the supposed super smooth 60fps games all seem to be less complex by their nature, and objects are much more spread out, thus even if they wheren't 60fps, they would still look smoother then their more complex counterparts.. this must be true or people wouldn't be claiming these 60fps games where smoother on their SD TV's when they could only actually see 30fps anyway..
As for GoW.. go onto www.xboxyde.com and download the HD first 10 mins of play video.. if you can see any lack of smoothness in any panning you have a poor display/setup..
so a supposed 60fps game over 576i/480i cannot show 60fps no matter how much you think it does..
However, I do agree that you should just about be able to see the difference between 30 and 60fps on a display capable of actually displaying 60fps (any 576p/720p/1080p set do), but that difference is extremely minor, and to most almost indistinguishable.. it isn't really the fps that makes it smoother.. and here's why
In answer to the comparison of games.. well, looking back to PGR2/GT or similar, if you look at the graphics make up, all the 30fps titles have two things that would make any slow down in frame rate/30fps issues much more obvious
1. Lots of 'close' detail.. having lots of 'hard' vertical edges close in the field of view means any panning shots will exxagerate any fps issues.. if it's just some rocks/mountains much further away with soft edges, this can hide panning stutter quite well. As an example, take a ruler and put it 10cm away from your eyes, and move it at speed accross your field of view.. it appears to stutter.. now get someone to move it 1M away, and waft it from side to side.. you will see that when up close you don't get a smooth effect, but when 1M away you do..
2. The colours are a little muted, again any contrasting areas give your eye something to notice any fps issues on.. on quite low contrast games (GT/RR) there is less for the eye to use as a point of reference..
I've noticed that all the supposed super smooth 60fps games all seem to be less complex by their nature, and objects are much more spread out, thus even if they wheren't 60fps, they would still look smoother then their more complex counterparts.. this must be true or people wouldn't be claiming these 60fps games where smoother on their SD TV's when they could only actually see 30fps anyway..
As for GoW.. go onto www.xboxyde.com and download the HD first 10 mins of play video.. if you can see any lack of smoothness in any panning you have a poor display/setup..
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This is factually incorrect though. If you play some 30fps and 60fps games yourself on your own TV you can prove it to yourself. Or simply watch live TV like a football match, and watch a movie on TV to see the difference in smoothness.Demon said:
What consoles and games do you own?
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B. I agree that 60fps is smoother and more responsive than 30fps. But so long as the framerate is constant and doesn't drop or stutter, 30fps is more than enough.
What is the framerate of the videos?Demon said:
Only a few site like www.kikizo.com have 60fps videos.
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I am probablly closest to B.
Though it really depends on the type of game, on RPG's for example, 30 FPS is perfect, fighting games I dont really want less than 60.
Though it really depends on the type of game, on RPG's for example, 30 FPS is perfect, fighting games I dont really want less than 60.
It is factually correct..
Watching SKY via RGB is 576i.. it can only show 25fps as it's PAL50...
On SKY there is a large diversity in broadcast material quality.. and a large diversity in TV's processing. so I would expect some differences....
Films are another matter. they are natively filmed at 24fps (well most are, some are 29.97fps) as you know, but it isn't the 24fps that makes them inherently so bad on SKY, it's more down to the conversion from 24 to 25fps,
Owning a projector and home theatre PC, I have plenty of natively 30/60fps encoded material (WMV-HD's), and I can switch between the two modes easily (720p -> 1080i which gives me the 60->30fps comparison) and the difference is minimal to say the least. It is just about noticeable, but it's a lot less then you would expect.
I have an XBOX with PGR/PGR2 amongst many others, a 360 with RR6/PGR3 and other, my PS2 was sold last year..
dirtydog said:You don't understand then
I'm afraid I do, only too well...
Wiki's say on video standards
You will notice that PAL-M (PAL 60) is 60 interlaced frames, 30 progressive frames.. Progressive frames are 'full frames', interlaced frames are 'half frames'..
If you are wrong about that, perhaps your other assumptions may not be as you think?
I don't doubt that some games look 'smoother' then others on SDTV 576i, and it's all to easy to come to the conclusion that it's because the game was written for 60fps.. but in reality it is only showing you a true 30fps.. which should tell you that it isn't just framerate that contributes to the 'smoothness'..
If you where to argue over 720p/60 where we are talking about a true comparison, PGR3 and RR6 being ones we could discuss.. then I could understand some of the arguments, as here, it's technically possible to see the extra 30fps RR6 has over PGR3.. However, unless you can run RR6 at 30 and then 60, or PGR3 at 30 then 60fps you can't really offer a subjective opinion.. of course the 60fps version of any game would be 'smoother', but the difference is much less then you think..
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Robert said:
There are a few videos on youtube that show some lag when the camera rotates. It's extreme lag, but unfortunately it's noticeable. I'll try find the one that particularly stood out.
And no it wasn't youtubes poor quality
I've downloaded them from gamespot as well in HD.
Dont post here often but i thought id weigh in with something as ive seen this discussion a lot. Im quoting a friend of mine here abit as we discussed this and it basically will explain to you why 30FPS is the more used of the two.
Point 1 : Visuals
Taking PGR as an example, PGR ran at a steady 60fps while PGR2 ran at 30fps - which would you rather play though ?
To quote Matt Cavanagh from Bizarre Creations (From Edge Equip Xbox Mag) :
Point 2 : Online Gamplay
Using Forza as an example, this in particular is locked to 30fps to ensure the network experience is as stable as possible by limiting the number of times the data is synced and therefore the number of times problems can creep in and cause cars to twitch all over the place as we have all probably experienced countless times, as the telemetry data has to be guessed by the game engine only for the real data to arrive and send the car somewhere else. It still happens occasionally but the aim is to reduce the number of chances for this to happen. It's network sync issues that ultimately meant the network play was dropped from GT4 and attempts to solve it pushed the game back later and later. It's not impossible to get network racers working, PGR and Forza are prime examples, but integrating into the existing GT engine was obviously too difficult.
Summary : 60fps is very nice but 30 fps is smooth when locked and added the potential for twice as much detail (What looks better PGR or RR6 bearing in mind PGR rendered at only 1024x576 IIRC). Conclusion, people should stop worrying about it and enjoy the games
Point 1 : Visuals
Taking PGR as an example, PGR ran at a steady 60fps while PGR2 ran at 30fps - which would you rather play though ?
To quote Matt Cavanagh from Bizarre Creations (From Edge Equip Xbox Mag) :
The environment detail is much higher in PGR2 and I'll personally accept an almost unnoticable frame rate drop for that gain.
Point 2 : Online Gamplay
Using Forza as an example, this in particular is locked to 30fps to ensure the network experience is as stable as possible by limiting the number of times the data is synced and therefore the number of times problems can creep in and cause cars to twitch all over the place as we have all probably experienced countless times, as the telemetry data has to be guessed by the game engine only for the real data to arrive and send the car somewhere else. It still happens occasionally but the aim is to reduce the number of chances for this to happen. It's network sync issues that ultimately meant the network play was dropped from GT4 and attempts to solve it pushed the game back later and later. It's not impossible to get network racers working, PGR and Forza are prime examples, but integrating into the existing GT engine was obviously too difficult.
Summary : 60fps is very nice but 30 fps is smooth when locked and added the potential for twice as much detail (What looks better PGR or RR6 bearing in mind PGR rendered at only 1024x576 IIRC). Conclusion, people should stop worrying about it and enjoy the games
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SCENARIO
A game has been developed for both 60 and 30 FPS. The 60 FPS appears to run smooth. The 30 FPS one has had extra graphical effects added, you can tell it looks better.
Todd goes to James' lan party and they set their games up side by side. Todd isnt happy when everyone that watches them play constantly comments on why his game looks worse than the other one.
Point being.. people care more about an acceptable constant lower framerate with maximum graphical effects than the intangible factor that appears to be 60 FPS.
A game has been developed for both 60 and 30 FPS. The 60 FPS appears to run smooth. The 30 FPS one has had extra graphical effects added, you can tell it looks better.
Todd goes to James' lan party and they set their games up side by side. Todd isnt happy when everyone that watches them play constantly comments on why his game looks worse than the other one.
Point being.. people care more about an acceptable constant lower framerate with maximum graphical effects than the intangible factor that appears to be 60 FPS.