6870 is here! for £170, WTF?? HELP!!

[chaotic_uk]

There was no 3970, etc. tho. 3870 was their top end card, 4870 was the top end card until the "ultra" 4890 came along, 5870 was their top single card...

nope the 3870x2 was not the 3870

 

[Final8y]

Adding an "off-chip buffer" means that it was not designed for it and we all already know 5870 architecture is a few generations old anyway. If AMD were designing a brand new DX11 architecture today then tessellation would be an integral part of that design unlike their current cards where it is simply an afterthought.

The 6970 is looking likely to be just another tweaked 5870 on steroids with some off-die tessellation chip.



So you're saying it's done by CPU emulation?

The fact is they do it better which you would expect from an architecture designed with DX11 in mind.

I have covered everything already & im not going around in circles again.

And no adding off the chip buffer improvement does not mean it was not designed for it, if it was not for the fact that the NV card performs better because the chip is so much bigger you would not be making such a comment at all because it would be slower at everything at the same size of the ATI chip & then because the NV chip would be slower than the ATI chip at the same size you would then be saying that the NV card was not designed with DX11 in mind because you purely based your conclusion on performance & not function when DX11 is a minimum function standard & not a performance one.

Some Emulators run the software/games better than the custom hardware that the software/Games was originally made for, does that mean that the software/Games was made more with future Emulators in mind & not the original hardware.

 

[Sayso]

(because no controller support)

mm i play geometry wars on my PC with a controller (no leaderboard bits though)...in fact i think you can play nearly all games with a controller on your PC if you want to.

As for the renaming scheme it seems a bit underhanded but if you read reviews before buying £200 of kit (which if you dont you should play on your xbox) i dont see the problem.

 

[DeadMan]

Has AMDs choice annoyed anyone else? I feel like ive been lied too...

I think I would only be annoyed at this if I had not done the research beforehand and bought one, although I cannot help thinking that bart has had the last laugh on this one.

The naming convention will catch a lot of people out but AMD is rebranding so I guess its up to them to change the rules when they like.

So far the 6000 series has been a null point only benefiting from less power consumption and a slightly lower price but AMD will have to do better to get my money.

 

[bhavv]

lol @ the last two pages since my last post.

I've been an ATI fan for a long time, but even I can see the lack of DX11 performance in all of their current cards.

This IS important to me because I know that new and current games (like Civ V) will be using tessellation. Once more games begin to make more use of DX11 features, the GTX 460 will have an advantage over the 5800 + 6800 ranges.

What is the point in making DX11 cards that handle DX9 and DX10 games really well, but fall behind in DX11 + Tessellation games? I already had a pair of 5770s before, I wanted something better that would also handle DX11 better, not just better FPS in games that are only utilizing DX9 + DX10, which is really all that the 5800s and 6800s do.

Yes they consume less power, have smaller die sizes etc, but maybe thats all because they definitely have a failure geometry and tessellation engine on them.

The single tessellation chip that they use is terrible for DX11 games, and if anything only prevents game developers from effectively utilizing tessellation because AMD hardware cant handle it well enough. The 6900 cards may end up having better DX11 performance, but I would imagine that they would also consume more power as a result and they are going to be very expensive.

Also, lets not forget the full 384 shader G104 that Nvidia still have to release. That will single handedly trump the 6870 once they get it released.

P.S. I am most definitely not an Nvidia fanboy - X1900 xtx, 3850 crossfire, 4850 crossfire, 4870 crossfire, 5770 crossfire. I simply do not see any tech advantage over the 5770 in the 5800 and 6800 range other than pure FPS.

I dont base my decisions purely on FPS numbers in a chart. As soon as you use DX11 + tessellation, which is what these cards are meant to be for, 768 Mb GTX 460 > 5870.

Nvidias fermi design uses a tessellation engine built into each shader block. AMD's uses a single tessellation unit plonked onto the chip as an afterthought after the rest was designed to achieve awesome speed in anything not using tessellation. I genuinely cant see any reason to spend money on any AMD card over the 5770 when the DX11 architecture is still so bad.

 

[Rhodan]

@ bhavv ... sorry to take this off topic a bit, but seeing as you've had quite a few crossfire setups in your time, what is your general experience with crossfire? Do you experience many issue's with games these days? Have the drivers and support improved?

I ask because I'm considering going with a 6800 series crossfire.

 

[bhavv]

@ bhavv ... sorry to take this off topic a bit, but seeing as you've had quite a few crossfire setups in your time, what is your general experience with crossfire? Do you experience many issue's with games these days? Have the drivers and support improved?

I ask because I'm considering going with a 6800 series crossfire.

Crossfire is fine, and the scaling has improved a lot with the current 6800 range. The only error I made and wouldnt recommend was the 4870 xfire setup, of anything using two cards that get as hot as those (eg GTX 480).

The 5770s were also the first ones that depreciated an awful lot in value second hand, and I ended up having to sell them for £85. The problem was that 4870s / 4850s were still around for the same price point or less second hand, making the 5770 an unattractive buy. The 4800s / 3800s surprisingly sold very close to what I had paid for them which is why I went thorugh them so easily with very little extra cost.

Now with how much the GTX 460s have fallen in price, I dont think I'm going to get another opportunity to sell + upgrade without as much loss as I made on the 5770s, plus theres nothing much better thats going to be available until the 384 shader G104, so what I have now is going to have to last, and for future DX11 games it looks like the right choice to me.

 

[An Exception]

Now with how much the GTX 460s have fallen in price, I dont think I'm going to get another opportunity to sell + upgrade without as much loss as I made on the 5770s, plus theres nothing much better thats going to be available until the 384 shader G104, so what I have now is going to have to last, and for future DX11 games it looks like the right choice to me.

Not exactly true now is it Bhavv...

Edit: also note other benchmarks point to much better minimums for the 6870 in the Heaven benchmark with extreme tessellation.
Also when taking scaling into account the 6870's would be far the better choice for people looking to buy a some cards now.

 

[bhavv]

Not exactly true now is it Bhavv...

Edit: also note other benchmarks point to much better minimums for the 6870 in the Heaven benchmark.

A 0.2 fps difference is significant enough to conclude that a 900 Mhz 6870 handles tessellation better than a 675 Mhz GTX 460?

I dont think so. A higher clocked 768 Mb GTX 460 is still trouncing the 6870. The 6850 / 6870 are only a mere 2 FPS better than the 5800 cards. Thats hardly a decent improvement.

Lets wait and see how the 6870 performs when overclocked first. I've read mixed opinions on this, some information says that the 6800s will not be able to overclock as well the 5800s did, others say they will be better.

Judging based on the prices and time of release of the cards, the 6870 should be significantly better than a GTX 460 for tessellation, not just 0.2 fps, which says absolutely nothing.

Also when taking scaling into account the 6870's would be far the better choice for people looking to buy a some cards now.

Depends entirely on budget. The 6870 doesnt look £50 better than a GTX 460 to me. Make it £170 and maybe then I will agree that it makes a better purchase.

 

[An Exception]

A 0.2 fps difference is significant enough to conclude that a 900 Mhz 6870 handles tessellation better than a 675 Mhz GTX 460?

That's right Bbavv, it's hardly a big deal, and neither is the 2FPS of an overclocked 460 Vs a stock 6870.
Maybe with both cards overclocked the 1gb 460 might be 1FPS faster (if that), hardly anything to brag about is it?
And not to mention that if the cards are to be running in xfire/SLI then that extremely slim advantage is negated by the fact that the 6870's scaling spank's the 460's...

 

[An Exception]

Depends entirely on budget. The 6870 doesnt look £50 better than a GTX 460 to me. Make it £170 and maybe then I will agree that it makes a better purchase.

Agreed, it was a better deal at £175...

 

[bhavv]

negated by the fact that the 6870's scaling spank's the 460's...

No it doesnt.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/radeon-hd-6870-radeon-hd-6850-barts,review-32028-20.html



You are not going to notice any difference from 82 > 102 maximum FPS. You are however going to notice a huge difference from 11 > 27 minimum FPS.

Also notice how minimum FPS increases from a single GTX 460 to SLI 460s. From a single 6870 to crossfire, it drops to a third? The only scaling spanking I see going on there is with the GTX 460.

 

[An Exception]

Yes it does, Tom's seems to be bucking the trend of other reviews.

 

[RavenXXX2]

lol whos results do we trust, Toms or ....kitguru lol.

Anyway how can you compare different res, maybe kitguru should test more than one res.

 

[An Exception]

Tom's is seriously FOS these days...

 

[Final8y]

I must have, because you say so...

Are we talking about "Average Joe" again? "Average Joe" only buys pre-built PCs, and generally keeps them for longer than they should. That is most people. So yes, most people don't read reviews on graphics cards, but they also don't buy them. Add to that the fact that stores like the Purple Shirts often don't even stock 5870 priced cards, the likelyhood of "Average Joe" who wants to upgrade his 5870, buying a 6870 thinking it's faster is extremely slim.

Define "a lot", and also "a lot" of people aren't in to buying graphics cards. In the grand scheme of consumer products, it's a niche market. Any one who has bought a 5870 for them selves and installed it in their own PC, is going to read reviews of graphics cards and be relatively "in to" PC gaming. As for the confusion, all these people that don't research or look at what they're buying (when spending hundreds of pounds), what's to say they have, or even know what a 5870 is? If for some reason "Average Joe" is looking at decent graphics cards and comes across a 6870 as that's his budget, he won't have a 5870 anyway.

The "a lot" of people you're talking about simply don't exist.

I'm guessing this was is a joke, as you surely see the connection here.

What? They didn't reconstruct what? It's a completely different GPU at a completely different price point, of course it's down to restructuring. Upgrades come at the same price point (give or take say 5%), not bordering on half the price of the previous *item*. Come on, it's like saying some one who owns a £40,000 car, thinks a new car that's come out at £25,000 is an upgrade because it's got a higher number on it.

is that some sort of order?

The biggest mistake that AMD did here like some others have said is that they did not have to full line up released at the same time.

Some one who bought the high end ATI 5870 £350 a year or so & said right im going to spend another £350 high end ATI if i can on the new cards.

ect... lower ends
6870 £204
6970 £350 <--- is the more likely choice as that persons want the best they can get for the budget they have.
ect.. higher ends

 

[bhavv]

Tom's is seriously FOS these days...

I've been reading Toms for 10-12 years, Kitguru I've never heard of so I'd rather listen to Toms.

The Kitguru results look completely unbelievable to me from everything I have read and used myself regarding Crossfire + SLI. Min / Max framerates hardly ever scale that evenly and perfectly in any such comparison.

 

[easyrider]

At the end of the day the consumer is being asked to spend the same for less performance

Do they think we are Daft?

Forget what the things are called....The 6850 @ 150 is a joke

 

[Stanners]

The biggest mistake that AMD did here like some others have said is that they did not have to full line up released at the same time.

Some one who bought the high end ATI 5870 £350 a year or so & said right im going to spend another £350 high end ATI if i can on the new cards.

ect... lower ends
6870 £204
6970 £350 <--- is the more likely choice as that persons want the best they can get for the budget they have.
ect.. higher ends

On the same hand, when people had the 4870 and the cost was what £200 on release, think i know i will get a new GFX card. Lets see, Oh the 5870 is £300, fair enough i want the best. Next, guess what... I fancy a new GFX card, Oh look the new ATI's have dropped back in price just like my awesome 4870, £200 for a 6870.. Bargain!

We can all spin anything we like

 

[bhavv]

That's right Bbavv, it's hardly a big deal, and neither is the 2FPS of an overclocked 460 Vs a stock 6870.

The improvement on a £119 GTX 460 over a £280 5870 in Extreme tessellation on Heaven is where the big deal is, similarly so with the 1 Gb 460. It is much less of a big deal, but still apparent when comparing to a £199 6870.

The 6870 has come out a year after the HD 5000 series, I would have expected a much better tessellation improvement to the architecture over a £119 GTX 460, but I simply dont see it.