7700K or 1700X ?

[zornyan]

/sigh

Quite a lot in the review but in retrospect to how many games there are in existence it's not a lot, Not that hard to understand.

there's what? 4 games that have been optimised for ryzen in total? ashes, tomb raider, prey and err total war iirc?

even in those ryzen is still behind intel, and it gets worse the older the game.

ryzens issue is three folded.

infinity fabric/cross ccx communication means it's always going to be slower than a single chip. the fact it's tied to ram speed is worse meaning you need a much more expensive ram kit than equiliviant on intel.

low clock speeds, 3.8/3.9ghz compared to 4.5-5ghz on intel.

lower ipc, around sandy/ivy bridge levels.

 

[DragonQ]

there's what? 4 games that have been optimised for ryzen in total? ashes, tomb raider, prey and err total war iirc?

even in those ryzen is still behind intel, and it gets worse the older the game.

A lot of games didn't need optimising for Ryzen. The ones you mentioned were noticeably poor on Ryzen and, as you've pointed out, are now much better. When you say Ryzen is still behind Intel in those games, by how much? 5%? Less? Ryzen is a cheaper platform, most people would be happy with 95% performance at a lower price point that has far more longevity and usefulness in other applications.

ryzens issue is three folded. infinity fabric/cross ccx communication means it's always going to be slower than a single chip. the fact it's tied to ram speed is worse meaning you need a much more expensive ram kit than equiliviant on intel.

This is true, although Intel chips also benefit from faster RAM (just not quite as much). The 1:2 Infinity:RAM ratio is definitely holding the chips back in some scenarios, which is why developing software for a brand new architecture is always tricky. Intel haven't actually released a brand-new ground-up architecture for over a decade so it hasn't been much of an issue in that time. AMD have already said improving the inter-CCX communication is something they're looking to do for Zen+.

low clock speeds, 3.8/3.9ghz compared to 4.5-5ghz on intel.

Yes but, again, this will become less and less important over the coming years.

lower ipc, around sandy/ivy bridge levels.

This simply isn't true. IPC is competitive with Haswell in single-threaded and Skylake in multi-threaded (due to superior SMT compared to Intel). I know you're only looking at gaming benchmarks for whatever reason but even in gaming this is obvious when looking at large suites of modern games.

 

[zornyan]

A lot of games didn't need optimising for Ryzen. The ones you mentioned were noticeably poor on Ryzen and, as you've pointed out, are now much better. When you say Ryzen is still behind Intel in those games, by how much? 5%? Less? Ryzen is a cheaper platform, most people would be happy with 95% performance at a lower price point that has far more longevity and usefulness in other applications.


This is true, although Intel chips also benefit from faster RAM (just not quite as much). The 1:2 Infinity:RAM ratio is definitely holding the chips back in some scenarios, which is why developing software for a brand new architecture is always tricky. Intel haven't actually released a brand-new ground-up architecture for over a decade so it hasn't been much of an issue in that time. AMD have already said improving the inter-CCX communication is something they're looking to do for Zen+.


Yes but, again, this will become less and less important over the coming years.


This simply isn't true. IPC is competitive with Haswell in single-threaded and Skylake in multi-threaded (due to superior SMT compared to Intel). I know you're only looking at gaming benchmarks for whatever reason but even in gaming this is obvious when looking at large suites of modern games.

https://youtu.be/UIIb5uZfukU

that's a real world workflow, using 16 threads and the 1800x at 4ghz is slower than the 5960x at 4ghz.

ryzen only looks better in cinebench because that's just always looked better on and hardware.

hence when in a game like battlefield that uses 16 threads it's still slower than a 6700k

 

[Journey]

Building a rig for a family member and can't decide on which CPU to go with, Now that the bios updates are coming thick and fast with high speed memory I've seen performance on a 4GHz 1700X match or exceed the 7700K at 5GHz in quite a lot of games but then there comes the question of whether some games take advantage of those extra cores and threads.

I have to build the rig within the next 2 weeks so can't wait for whatever Intel throws out next in August.

So, Pros and cons, 7700K or 1700X ?

Mature, stable, end of life platform from Intel - 7700K - 4c/8t If you are building a system that never needs to be upgraded other than the GPU, and RAM, and will be in use for 4+ years, then get a 7700K, and price is not a problem.

New & slightly challenging, brand new architecture, socket with 3+ years of life left in it - Ryzen R5/7 system. If you don't mind things being not perfect right now, and incoming improvements, and I am assuming 1440P will be a GTX 1070/1080 minimum, you will lose a few FPS in some games.

I've noticed you have not mentioned a budget for the whole system? It would seem that the sensible option would be to share this info, as you could build an R5 1600 system on a B350 board, for the same cost as the Intel 7700K, and then use the extra cash to get a GPU uplift, which will improve all the games performacne no matter what the CPU. Then if 6c/12t at 3.9/4.0GHz is not enough, then at least you would be able to drop a Zen+/Zen2 chip in it some where down the line, you'll never be able to upgrade the Intel platform sadly.

 

[jaffveyda]

Mature, stable, end of life platform from Intel - 7700K - 4c/8t If you are building a system that never needs to be upgraded other than the GPU, and RAM, and will be in use for 4+ years, then get a 7700K, and price is not a problem.

New & slightly challenging, brand new architecture, socket with 3+ years of life left in it - Ryzen R5/7 system. If you don't mind things being not perfect right now, and incoming improvements, and I am assuming 1440P will be a GTX 1070/1080 minimum, you will lose a few FPS in some games.

I've noticed you have not mentioned a budget for the whole system? It would seem that the sensible option would be to share this info, as you could build an R5 1600 system on a B350 board, for the same cost as the Intel 7700K, and then use the extra cash to get a GPU uplift, which will improve all the games performacne no matter what the CPU. Then if 6c/12t at 3.9/4.0GHz is not enough, then at least you would be able to drop a Zen+/Zen2 chip in it some where down the line, you'll never be able to upgrade the Intel platform sadly.

1440p i would go Ryzen all the way, not much difference in FPS and cost noticeable cheaper.

 

[Ste]

It's proving a difficult choice

Right now I'm sat on my x58 Xeon system (6c/12t, 4.5ghz, 12gb DDR3) wondering whether it's even worth the upgrade with everything that's around the corner in terms of Ryzen maturing, coffeelake and skylake-x.

I'm looking at either -

Z170 ASUS Hero, 7700k, £390 (net of the £120 ASUS cashback deal)
X370 Gigabyte Gaming 5, Ryzen 1700, £470

Plus 130-200 for 16gb of DDR4 (limited choice for Ryzen) and another 100 quid for a decent cooler under either case.

So really around £600 to upgrade right now. Tempted to shelve the idea and stick a 1080ti into the x58 system...

 

[breathe3asy]

It's proving a difficult choice

Right now I'm sat on my x58 Xeon system (6c/12t, 4.5ghz, 12gb DDR3) wondering whether it's even worth the upgrade with everything that's around the corner in terms of Ryzen maturing, coffeelake and skylake-x.

I'm looking at either -

Z170 ASUS Hero, 7700k, £390 (net of the £120 ASUS cashback deal)
X370 Gigabyte Gaming 5, Ryzen 1700, £470

Plus 130-200 for 16gb of DDR4 (limited choice for Ryzen) and another 100 quid for a decent cooler under either case.

So really around £600 to upgrade right now. Tempted to shelve the idea and stick a 1080ti into the x58 system...

If at 1440p or higher go for the 1080ti and wait for sure. There's no compelling reason to upgrade everything else right now

 

[Dicehunter]

Mature, stable, end of life platform from Intel - 7700K - 4c/8t If you are building a system that never needs to be upgraded other than the GPU, and RAM, and will be in use for 4+ years, then get a 7700K, and price is not a problem.

New & slightly challenging, brand new architecture, socket with 3+ years of life left in it - Ryzen R5/7 system. If you don't mind things being not perfect right now, and incoming improvements, and I am assuming 1440P will be a GTX 1070/1080 minimum, you will lose a few FPS in some games.

I've noticed you have not mentioned a budget for the whole system? It would seem that the sensible option would be to share this info, as you could build an R5 1600 system on a B350 board, for the same cost as the Intel 7700K, and then use the extra cash to get a GPU uplift, which will improve all the games performacne no matter what the CPU. Then if 6c/12t at 3.9/4.0GHz is not enough, then at least you would be able to drop a Zen+/Zen2 chip in it some where down the line, you'll never be able to upgrade the Intel platform sadly.

The GPU going into the build is a 1080 Ti, Got pretty much everything sorted minus the board and chip, Looked at quite a few benchmarks, These are quite up to date -

Got them from this video and they seem to be in line with what I'm seeing from users on various forums and other more recent videos with newer bios' etc....

 

[Ste]

What's amazing about that set of benchmarks is that Crysis 3 is the one that should be showing us a "glimpse of the future" - i.e. just how well a nicely optimised PC game can scale when presented with lots of threads.

Ironic in that it came out over four years ago!

I've gone ahead and ordered the Corsair 740 case, Thermaltake 360 AIO Riing cooler, and a 3 pack of Riing 140mm fans. If I can't make my mind up on the main upgrade I'll rebuild this system into a nice looking build in the interim and then transplant coffeelake into there or something when the time is right

 

[Journey]

The GPU going into the build is a 1080 Ti, Got pretty much everything sorted minus the board and chip, Looked at quite a few benchmarks, These are quite up to date


Got them from this video and they seem to be in line with what I'm seeing from users on various forums and other more recent videos with newer bios' etc....

It's highly unlikely that you are going to be CPU limited at 1440P, on 1080 Ti with Max settings, and in newer games that is only going to become even more pronounced. So it make little difference which choice you make, from the gaming perspective, especially if you end up using faster RAM with the AMD option.

Flip a coin? As I said if there is no plan to ever upgrade the system, then buy which ever one floats your boat, or if you want to save some $$$ , buy AMD, then go for a nice steak dinner with the savings.

 

[Ste]

Don't forget the ASUS cashback deal though, 7700k and a cheaper board can be had for approx £350 if you go Z170, which you might as well (Z270 is just as dead tech and offers nothing extra) so a good deal cheaper than a 1700 b350 setup (and little more than a 1600 I guess).

 

[gavinh87]

Don't forget the ASUS cashback deal though, 7700k and a cheaper board can be had for approx £350 if you go Z170, which you might as well (Z270 is just as dead tech and offers nothing extra) so a good deal cheaper than a 1700 b350 setup (and little more than a 1600 I guess).

Except you'll need to update the bios in the z170 before putting that 7700k in.

 

[mattyg]

This discussion proves things are hotting up. Years ago the answer would have been Q6600 and nothing else.

At least now we have different options. Can only be good for the consumer.

 

[humbug]

well there is because intel has newer cpus coming in that price range.also intel cpus are still better in games.the guy above mentioned about more cores but the 6800k is better in games than ryzen anyway.

so factor in new intel chips faster than ryzen at similar price very shortly.that's not saying any of the chips mentioned are bad they aren't but if you not in a rush and they so close to release why wouldnt you wait ?

i get people say buy now forget waiting when its 6-12months but when its literally weeks away now and most people keep a high end systems for 3-5 years.you might aswell have the best for your system when you buy it.


so ryzen will drop price a little and get ready for next revision.

also when people say intel are more expensive they factor in short term value when as pointed out its often a 3-5 year experience which if intel is at the top more than amd over that period you got better value/ performance from that extra £50-£100 over 3-5 years from the intel set up.

I'm getting a bit tired of nonsense posts like this.

The 7700K is better for older games, the Ryzen 1600 is better for newer games, in a mixture of games there is little in it. And if you think Intel will have 6 core CPU's for £200 you really are deluded.

2% at 1440P and the Ryzen chip will only get better over time. £200 vs £350..... your great hope is that Intel will match AMD's pricing but lol NO....

Intel's lack of compute threads is also a real problem.

The GPU going into the build is a 1080 Ti, Got pretty much everything sorted minus the board and chip, Looked at quite a few benchmarks, These are quite up to date -

Got them from this video and they seem to be in line with what I'm seeing from users on various forums and other more recent videos with newer bios' etc....

You know what i find interesting about these latest benchmarks, everyone like D.P keep going on about how Intel are better because of single threaded performance and yet i think we can all agree that in most of those games the 5Ghz 7700K is at least = with the 4Ghz Ryzen....
Whats that? single threaded performance? eh?

 

[~>Dg<~]

okay it will be a back and forth and what i meant is there will be intel new cpus in the price bracket of the current top end ryzen.yes its pretty decent but as pointed out before x99 platform is still quicker in games across the board. dont need to see odd benchmark im on about across the board.bf1 which is the most modern game in mp for eg is quickest on a x99 cpu.

older games ...7700k is generally faster across the board but as usual people will show games which are faster for the opposite. as whole across gaming which is quicker be honest ? it is intel.regardless of if ryzen is good or not its intel.

add to that you have new intel cpus which will have more cores coming soon on a newer platform and faster.

yes you can get good value on amd ryzen close to top end but if we going down that road lets all forget new chips buy a 2500k and oc it.for £50

 

[Panos]

The GPU going into the build is a 1080 Ti, Got pretty much everything sorted minus the board and chip, Looked at quite a few benchmarks, These are quite up to date -

Got them from this video and they seem to be in line with what I'm seeing from users on various forums and other more recent videos with newer bios' etc....

Ponting at the minimums which on some games like Crysis 3 is almost double that of the 7700K.

And comes in line with my experience. The 6700K @4.8(which is the same with the 7700K) was slower than the 1700X at 4ghz and the current 6800K at 4Ghz also even I single thread game like WOT.
And 4.8 to 5ghz isn't that big jump in perf.

Also 5ghz 7700K needs deliding (warranty voided) and elaborate watercooling. The stock wraith coming with the 1700 allows overclocking to 3.9 at least, if you use p-states and low voltage and B350 boards are cheap enough to lower the price. Hell the Biostar mitx x370 only goes for around 100 allowing even the 1800X to run at 4.1-4.2

 

[humbug]

Crysis 3 and GTA5 ^^^^^

okay it will be a back and forth and what i meant is there will be intel new cpus in the price bracket of the current top end ryzen.yes its pretty decent but as pointed out before x99 platform is still quicker in games across the board. dont need to see odd benchmark im on about across the board.bf1 which is the most modern game in mp for eg is quickest on a x99 cpu.

older games ...7700k is generally faster across the board but as usual people will show games which are faster for the opposite. as whole across gaming which is quicker be honest ? it is intel.regardless of if ryzen is good or not its intel.

add to that you have new intel cpus which will have more cores coming soon on a newer platform and faster.

yes you can get good value on amd ryzen close to top end but if we going down that road lets all forget new chips buy a 2500k and oc it.for £50

You're making blanket statements

Ryzen is faster than X99, Ryzens IPC is higher than X99, X99 beats Ryzen only when very slow memory is used to hobble Ryzens Infinity Fabric, as you can see from Dicehunters slides after several Microcode updates and 3200Mhz RAM Ryzen at 4Ghz has gone from being 20% slower than a 7700K to 10% faster, that's averages, on the same slide the 4Ghz Ryzen is 70% faster on the minimums than the 5Ghz 7700K.

Intel will no doubt get the performance crown back with mainstream 6 core KabyLake CPU's but they are not going to be a lot faster than Ryzen and they will still cost at least 50% more.

Credit where credit is due Dg... for just once in this room. AMD have the best gaming CPU's right now, by any measure excluding 'very old games only' the best CPU's full stop as thread for thread Ryzen is faster than X99, even on Intel's favourite benchmark Cinebench.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Look even Nvidia did a build on their website with Ryzen:

http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...lite-performance-build-powered-by-gtx-1080-ti

We found the ultimate way to marry NVIDIA, AMD and Intel in one machine! The components from each of these computing giants take chief positions in this rig. Our GeForce GTX 1080 Ti will govern GPU-crunching duties. AMD’s Ryzen 7 1700X is on CPU duties with Intel managing blazing-fast system storage needs.

For this we decided to give Team Red a go and paired AMD’s new Ryzen 7 1700X 3.4GHz 8-Core Processor with a GTX 1080 Ti GPU to create a marvelous custom PC. From top to bottom, the focus was to build a machine that will easily carve through system-intensive applications. This not only includes today’s most demanding games but also pro-style productivity solutions like Adobe Premiere Pro where both GPU CUDA cores and CPU multicore-count are leveraged.

The new 14nm die from team Red is based on AMD’s high-performance x86 Core “Zen” CPU microarchitecture and features an 8-core / 16-thread configuration (2-threads per core), which is unlocked for skilled overclocking to yield additional speed and performance. The new microarchitecture is also more energy-efficient than previous generations from AMD, adding further value to our Ultimate RGB Elite Performance GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming PC. Our NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Founders Edition from ASUS is an equally affordable option among our flagship 10-series GPU. The ASUS 1080 Ti FE is powered by our award-winning Pascal GPU architecture. With its unprecedented 11GB video buffer, this card is the definitive solution for both 4K and VR gaming application without compromising on in-game settings.

Like all GeForce GTX GPUS, the GTX 1080 Ti Founders Edition opens the door to all the free software bells and whistles, which have become indispensable for gamers. At the top among them is GeForce Experience, featuring comprehensive and intuitive game management, deep and engaging social features to Share your greatest gaming moments as well as no-hassle one-click game optimization to enhance performance in your favorite games. Be sure to Sign-up! Your GFE account also serves as an automatic entry into all the tie-in giveaways where you can win game codes for hot new titles, Closed-Betas, in-game items, new GPUs and more.

For more insight, take a peek at the deep well of cutting edge technologies leveraged in our revolutionary Pascal GPU architecture.

 

[~>Dg<~]

Crysis 3 and GTA5 ^^^^^



You're making blanket statements

Ryzen is faster than X99, Ryzens IPC is higher than X99, X99 beats Ryzen only when very slow memory is used to hobble Ryzens Infinity Fabric, as you can see from Dicehunters slides after several Microcode updates and 3200Mhz RAM Ryzen at 4Ghz has gone from being 20% slower than a 7700K to 10% faster, that's averages, on the same slide the 4Ghz Ryzen is 70% faster on the minimums than the 5Ghz 7700K.

Intel will no doubt get the performance crown back with mainstream 6 core KabyLake CPU's but they are not going to be a lot faster than Ryzen and they will still cost at least 50% more.

Credit where credit is due Dg... for just once in this room.

ryzen is not faster in games than x99.its faster in some rendering progs and other progs.ingames across the board it isnt.even a 7700k can beat even top ryzen in 90 percent of games.as said people pick and choose games to say whatever product is faster.intel is still faster across the board on avg.

benched about 15 cpus in bf1.ryzen is slower than x99 cpus in it.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

ryzen is not faster in games than x99.its faster in some rendering progs and other progs.ingames across the board it isnt.even a 7700k can beat even top ryzen in 90 percent of games.as said people pick and choose games to say whatever product is faster.intel is still faster across the board on avg.

benched about 15 cpus in bf1.ryzen is slower than x99 cpus in it.

Nvidia just did a build on their own website where they choose a Ryzen 7 1700 over a Core i7 6950X and a Core i7 7700K and paired it with an Asus GTX1080TI.

Nvidia at least think Ryzen is fast enough to drive their fastest card perfectly fine.