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7970 vs 680 thread.

Ultimately if you wanted to know which card will come out on top (but I don't see it even with drivers) that is what it may come down to.

The fact is that they both perform right around level, so saying one is great and the other not so great is clearly wrong.

That is all I have been trying to do since the 680 came out. Trying to make people aware that maybe they should not fall for the hype, or that the 680 is worth £400 when the 7970 isn't.

Sadly that message will be slow to get out, with fever hitting as soon as the reviews did. Many have sold cards that were equally as good and replaced them.

Maybe just because they can't stand the thought of not having the latest, because quite clearly the 680 ain't the greatest.

To be honest i dont give a flying **** which is the greatest cuz im gona wait and see how much the 7950 drops in price.

I see them both being able to do what they are meant to and that is run any present game maxed out regardless of how much FPS difference there is between the 2 cards. When it comes to games they are meant to be played and enjoyed while playing them.. not boasting about how much more FPS one person is getting over another.

I did a quick test on BF3 the other night for a couple of hours (64 player server too) to see how my setup ran on High settings with 2x MSAA @ 1080p and i was happy to see around 60 FPS with vsync enabled with some drops to 40 FPS but it still runs smooth and im happy with that at the moment :)

Im rather surprised at how smooth BF3 can still run even when FPS drops down low.
 
ATM, although I find the pricing of the current 28NM cards high, there does seems to be some indications that production costs have not gone down despite the smaller chips. It seems TSMC has increased costs massively.

IMHO, people see AMD has a value GPU vendor and Nvidia as the non-value vendor,hence AMD cannot get away with the same pricing levels as Nvidia. Even if they had exactly the same products as Nvidia,they would have to price them lower. This is the impression I get! :(

Either way cards over £250 are not my cup of tea either,so YMMV.

You only have to look at the HD5870:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/34.html

"Not the best price/performance"

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graph...70-dx11-graphics-card-reviewed-rated/?page=16

"The upshot is a die-size of around 334mm², which whilst larger than the previous generation's, is, we feel, just about economically acceptable for GPUs retailing between $299 and $399. Naturally, given the current economic climate, a lower street price for the cards would have been preferable - say sub-£250 for the HD 5870 and sub-£200 for the HD 5850."

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/09/23/ait-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-review/9

"Quite honestly, after 18 months between the last and this generation it's not really a large enough jump in performance to make us very impressed by the performance for a £300 product."

In the US the GTX285 was still well over $300+ at the time and the HD5870 launched at around $380. The GTX285 was still around £250(or more) in the Hexus review and launched at around £300.

The HD5850 1GB was superior in very way to the GTX285 and yet Hexus thought it should be under £200!!
 
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IMHO, people see AMD has a value GPU vendor and Nvidia as the non-value vendor,hence AMD cannot get away with the same pricing levels as Nvidia. Even if they had exactly the same products as Nvidia,they would have to price them lower. This is the impression I get! :(

I'm equally as critical of everything in life Cat, but the way I see it the Nvidiot does indeed and is alive and well. As much as I hate clichés I truly believe that Nvidiots do exist. Kind of like some sort of mythical beast.

And, they are the same sort as the Apple bunch, who also definitely exist. It just seems that certain companies have a way of peeing on people's backs and telling them it is raining.

What I mean by that is that certain companies can do no wrong. And even when they do there was a very good reason why they were doing it.

Corporations. They use all sorts of low down tricks and brain washing techniques, and some of them are good at it. Nvidia always were.

I had a ahem, discussion about it recently when we did the time warp back to 1999. Up until that point no one was interested in specs or what not, as we just liked seeing new things. Nvidia though? from the word go as soon as they set foot in the marketplace they started the flame wars and bad mouthing.

So whilst Nvidia were indeed supplying faster cards than 3DFX and they were capable of 100 FPS in Quake II and so on none of it really mattered. But, Nvidia made it matter and made people start to obsess over having the fastest even though it was completely unessential. Fact of the matter was a 4mb onboard or something like a Trident with a Voodoo card was more than adequate for maxing out games.

And, it hasn't changed much. Here we are ten years down the line being sold bottles of snake oil. The most successful DX version ever was of course DX9. But how much crap have we been mis sold since?

DX11. Wow, brand new technology that does tessellation !

Wooooow. Let's all load up a benchmark that uses it and then obsess over whose goes faster. Wooow, DX11 is great. But is it really great?

Well, many will not have seen this.

dx10t.jpg


Why haven't they seen it? because at that time Nvidia and AMD did not need another reason to sell you a new GPU that would do all of the things they say. However, with DX11 tessellation became essential, and if you didn't have a DX11 card you smelled like wee.

Same goes for the lighting and shadows. When Dirt 2 came out it was quickly realised that near on all of the features it used could be ran with DX10 cards. The lighting, shading and so on were all unlockable and would all run perfectly fine on a DX10 card.

Now we are being fed more hyperbole and snakeoil.

It never ends.
 
The worst thing is now the very same reviewers are saying a £400 card is "good value" FFS. How times change.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_680/32.html

"16% performance increase over GTX 580.
Reasonable price"

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/36509-nvidia-geforce-gtx-680-2gb-graphics-card/?page=18

No mention of price.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2012/03/22/nvidia-geforce-gtx-680-2gb-review/15

"While we realise that £400 is a great deal to spend on a GPU, we really feel that the performance, power consumption and features on offer with the GTX 680 2GB more than justify the outlay."

Yet,the HD5870 1GB was the first DX11 GPU and was a bigger performance jump when compared to the GTX285 and was considered overpriced.

The GTX580 to GTX680 transition took nearly 17 months and yet did Bit-tech mention this?? They did with the HD5870 1GB.

AMD probably has to price its top end at under £300,irrespective of the performance jump to be considered not ovepriced by the tech press.
 
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no not at all, the 400 quid you have now will be 600 quid next month, thus you can buy a faster card..... the logic is simple, it's just you're too impatient

plus when you do have the 600 quid, there will be more advanced versions of this 680 for sale.

this is based on the assumption I have only £400 now.... Again backwards logic
 
The worst thing is now the very same reviewers are saying a £400 card is "good value" FFS. How times change.

It's disgusting mate it really is.

Mind you, Bit-tech sold its soul to the devil a couple of months ago.

They used to be a very down to earth site/magazine that spoke honestly and fairly about everything. There were a few times I felt they got it wrong (like the Noctua NH-D14) but then we must remember that a lot of it comes down to opinion. However, the site has changed dramatically recently.

Now when you go there it sometimes plays an Ebay ad over the top, and their reviews and awards seem to be used a lot more.

Need for speed : The run is a classic example. It got over 90% and a gold award for a game that was seriously buggy and locked to 30 FPS.

The fact that they negated to mention the 30 FPS however was a sign of the times. They obviously didn't want to upset EA as they then get starved.

And their 680 review is more of the same. Basically it doesn't give the whole story, then tells you it's well worth the £400. However, even if it did have a lead on the 7970 it's definitely not the lead the 7970 took over the 580 ! yet they found it hard to recommend the 7970 due to its price tag :rolleyes:

I've said it before and I will say it again. Reviewers in this day and age are no such thing. They are salesmen.

Case in point. Tom at OC3D wrote a pretty stinky review of some Kingston ram with water cooling blocks on. It was so bad that Kingston forced him to remove it, and have not offered him anything for review since.

Tom reviewed an NZXT case that was attempting to dethrone the Fractal R3 but it was crap, so he told it like it was. NZXT refused to give him anything else. Finally they did (a cooler) and he bum licked it from the word go.

Of course he did. He has a living to make, and food to put on the table.

Oddly of all of these companies that "roll like dat" Alienware are the worst. If they were bad mouthed in a review they would hit the reviewer with a cease and desist and then never give them another review product.
 
It's disgusting mate it really is.

Its hilarious they have gone from £250 to £300 being overpriced to £400 cards which have less of a performance increase being great.

At least whatever people say about Anandtech he did at least say that the previous generations were better for price/performance, and hopefully there would be room for price cuts in the future now the GTX680 is out(the GTX680 is actually cheaper in the US than here when compared to the HD7970).
 
ATM, although I find the pricing of the current 28NM cards high, there does seems to be some indications that production costs have not gone down despite the smaller chips. It seems TSMC has increased costs massively.

IMHO, people see AMD has a value GPU vendor and Nvidia as the non-value vendor,hence AMD cannot get away with the same pricing levels as Nvidia. Even if they had exactly the same products as Nvidia,they would have to price them lower. This is the impression I get! :(

Either way cards over £250 are not my cup of tea either,so YMMV.

You only have to look at the HD5870:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/Radeon_HD_5870/34.html

"Not the best price/performance"

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graph...70-dx11-graphics-card-reviewed-rated/?page=16

"The upshot is a die-size of around 334mm², which whilst larger than the previous generation's, is, we feel, just about economically acceptable for GPUs retailing between $299 and $399. Naturally, given the current economic climate, a lower street price for the cards would have been preferable - say sub-£250 for the HD 5870 and sub-£200 for the HD 5850."

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2009/09/23/ait-radeon-hd-5870-1gb-review/9

"Quite honestly, after 18 months between the last and this generation it's not really a large enough jump in performance to make us very impressed by the performance for a £300 product."

In the US the GTX285 was still well over $300+ at the time and the HD5870 launched at around $380. The GTX285 was still around £250(or more) in the Hexus review and launched at around £300.

The HD5850 1GB was superior in very way to the GTX285 and yet Hexus thought it should be under £200!!

Yep not impresses with any of them, the only thing i find interesting is the double standards and shifting of goal posts.

Overclock used to be a factor argued by some, now how its behaves stock is more important.

Die size didn't matter when the huge Fermi first came out as long as it was faster even though it was about twice the size and not that much faster outside of tessellations, now that the NV chip is the smaller but not by the extent of when it was the other way around, now the Die size matters.

Talk about 180s.
 
Its hilarious they have gone from £250 to £300 being overpriced to £400 cards which have less of a performance increase being great.

At least whatever people say about Anandtech he did at least say that the previous generations were better for price/performance and hopefully there would be room for price cuts in the future now the GTX680 is out(the GTX680 is actually cheaper in the US than here when compared to the HD7970).

Don't really read Anandtech tbh. Nothing against it, just haven't really checked it very often.

Previous gen cards will always be better value. I bought the 280 I had a week before ATI released their DX11 cards for £180. It was a XFX XXX model that was worth almost £400 at launch.

I only ended up with DX11 cards because it packed up. Then I got a 470 when the 500 series came out for £170 or so.

I've always just gone with the flow and picked up the bargains. 7970 is the first stupid card I've bought in over a decade. Last one was a 3Dlabs Oxygen for £280. Mind you, I have to say that back then the Geforce II was slower but no one knew about 3Dlabs because they were workstation cards. Didn't matter then though, good old OGL :)
 
What about that rumoured surround tech where the fps would be biased to the central monitor and would allow the surrounding monitor to use lower fps rate to keep performance smoother on the central monitor... Did that turn out to be complete bunk or has no one validated whether the features exists?
 
Its hilarious they have gone from £250 to £300 being overpriced to £400 cards which have less of a performance increase being great.

At least whatever people say about Anandtech he did at least say that the previous generations were better for price/performance, and hopefully there would be room for price cuts in the future now the GTX680 is out(the GTX680 is actually cheaper in the US than here when compared to the HD7970).

You just have to ignore people supporting these ridiculous prices. It has been shown to them over and over again yet they still don't think they're getting screwed. Even when you show the price : performance increase from the 5000/GTX 400 to the 6000 /GTX 500 series was greater than the increase from the 6000 /GTX 500 to the 7000/GTX 600 series they still think that the price is justified... It's amazing that people forgot how slight the price : performance increase across the two 40nm generations was yet it was still better than what we have seen with 28nm.
 
Alxandy you make some very valid points. Just makes me think there is room for a real independent review site. One that buys its own hardware and has unbiased tests, surely the traffic that would generate could make it pay?
 
Don't really read Anandtech tbh. Nothing against it, just haven't really checked it very often.

Previous gen cards will always be better value. I bought the 280 I had a week before ATI released their DX11 cards for £180. It was a XFX XXX model that was worth almost £400 at launch.

I only ended up with DX11 cards because it packed up. Then I got a 470 when the 500 series came out for £170 or so.

I've always just gone with the flow and picked up the bargains. 7970 is the first stupid card I've bought in over a decade. Last one was a 3Dlabs Oxygen for £280. Mind you, I have to say that back then the Geforce II was slower but no one knew about 3Dlabs because they were workstation cards. Didn't matter then though, good old OGL :)

This is his comment on the current generation:

"I think ultimately we still haven’t moved very far on the price/performance curve compared to where we’ve gone in past generations"

He did consider the GTX680 better value(in the US it is cheaper than the HD7970 by $50 so that is an easy one),but with the above caveat and he hoped the GTX680 would drop in price as time progressed.

Its nice to hear at least one website which mentioned price/performance should be like previous generations.

You just have to ignore people supporting these ridiculous prices. It has been shown to them over and over again yet they still don't think they're getting screwed. Even when you show the price : performance increase from the 5000/GTX 400 to the 6000 /GTX 500 series was greater than the increase from the 6000 /GTX 500 to the 7000/GTX 600 series they still think that the price is justified... It's amazing that people forgot how slight the price : performance increase across the two 40nm generations was yet it was still better than what we have seen with 28nm.

I agree.
 
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Die size didn't matter when the huge Fermi first came out as long as it was faster even though it was about twice the size and not that much faster outside of tessellations, now that the NV chip is the smaller but not by the extent of when it was the other way around, now the Die size matters.

Talk about 180s.

Like you said Fermi was faster.

GTX480 was a bigger die but faster than 6970.
GTX680 is a smaller die but faster than 7970.

See the trend? most people don't care about die size they care about the outright performance.
 
Alxandy you make some very valid points. Just makes me think there is room for a real independent review site. One that buys its own hardware and has unbiased tests, surely the traffic that would generate could make it pay?

It would get shut down in a heartbeat mate.

I know a good few ex game reviewers. All of them were chased out of the industry due to being honest. One of them hasn't been able to get any work reviewing since he told Driv3r like it was.

It's mostly the company I keep that keeps me on my toes. I usually know the truth.

It's all very similar to when I worked in sales running a call centre in the USA. Still under NDA with that so I do need to be careful what I say, but let's just say that you can take a bottle of herbal snake oil that cost 40 cents to make (most expensive bit being the plastic bottle) and then sell it to some one for $59 with a recurring shipment every month.

It's not about what you have and what it can do, it's all about how you sell it mate. Making people happy with what they are buying, even if it's a load of old crap.

I was in that job for three years all told before I finally broke down and couldn't keep doing it. I'm a very honest person, and I don't like seeing people mis sold a load of crap. We had a product in one day that was literally a sachet of powder and the way they were selling it was completely dishonest and relied on scaring people.

It's a very cut throat world out there. The sad fact of life is mate that people are never usually interested in the truth as the truth isn't very exciting.

Let's take the Xfactor. It's rigged from the ground up. Auditions are rigged, only showing on TV what they want you to see. If you are very good? you get to go on TV. If you are very bad? you get to go on TV. However, they pre screen all of the contestants so if you're not very good looking or what not but CAN sing (IE won't sell records to kids or make people laugh at you) then they just turn you away.

Then all of the acts are "sold" to us. IE - right from audition level it's clear to see who will make the live shows because their auditions include all the sob stories ETC. They are already playing on our emotions for votes.

Next step? rigged. Even if we vote some one in they can change it and keep some one in, meaning all of those thousands of phone calls (and pounds) were just really a waste as they get to choose and so on.

It's extremely linear mate, but then most sales are. I still remember to this day the graphs we used to show our new employees where you basically railroad the person on the phone into the end result - a sale !!!!

So yes. I know far more about how this all works than others will, as basically it has been my business in some shape or form for nearly a decade.
 
ive got both cards gtx680/amd7970 and can say i can see crap all between them to be fair.

Well to be fair I imagine a 5-10% difference in performance would be difficult to spot, but it seems as though 7970 prices may not shift at all as the overclocking potential of the 7970 seems to be superior to the GTX 680 at this point due to the lack of overall control you have on the 680's overclocking and despite the similar limits of both cards hitting around 1.2Ghz, the 7970 scales better with overclocks.
 
ive got both cards gtx680/amd7970 and can say i can see crap all between them to be fair.

Well from a visual perspective you won't mate. Both are veeery powerful cards capable of ripping games to bits at 1080p.

But of course none of this is ever pointed out truthfully in reviews.

You know? that bit at the end that says -

If you already have something like a 570 or 6950+ and you game at 1080p then there is absolutely no reason to buy this card. Infact, if you have anything over those like a 580 or 7950+ then you would be better of going outside naked and standing there barking like a dog than buying this card.

But they can't can they? If you do that you don't make the 680 sound wonderful. You don't make it sound marvellous.

So who would buy it?

I repeat. Reviewers are not reviewers, they are salesmen.

It shouldn't even be up to them to try and dictate what is worth what in pounds and pence, they should simply post up the scores and remain completely impartial, letting the user make up his/her mind.

THAT is the honest way to do it. But no. Right from the opening bloody line it's crap like "wow this card really is amazing and is faster than the 7970 !".

But that's human nature. Stupid will always outweigh intellect because intellect is hard work. It needs constant attention and learning. Stupid is nice and easy and it's easy to be ignorant.
 
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