£900,000 to paint a plane?

@garnett I was editing my post while you replied, I've added a whole new paragraph. I know you'll still be annoyed by everything but there's some explanations there.
Hmmm. Not so much "added" to but more created entirely different point.

Oh the irony. Due to your "poor research" you've written that the aircraft is "drab olive", which is green, when the correct research would have easily shown that the aircraft is "drab grey".

When I mentioned earlier about "Internet Experts" vs people with real world experience I think this might be a helpful example. I get that you don't understand "why" we need the repaint (fair enough) as not many people will know that flying at 500+mph for hundreds of thousands of miles over the last 4 years just might damage the paint just a bit (Zefan wrote a nice post about it) but, as mentioned in the OP, the majority of the cost is for the "refit" which is for new/additional secure communications equipment rather than giving Boris a gold bath and a four-poster bed etc, which would understandably be considered a waste.

Of course if the complaints are just based on "Boris Bad" then no amount of discussion about this will make any logical sense.
You're asserted a completely strawman argument...

I say:
I actually think it makes sense to smarten up what is a very drab looking plane - and, like it or not, image counts.
You say:-
I get that you don't understand "why" we need the repaint (fair enough) as not many people will know that flying at 500+mph for hundreds of thousands of miles over the last 4 years just might damage the paint just a bit (Zefan wrote a nice post about it)
....And notwithstanding that, you fail to address the point that this thing got a £10,000,000 overhaul 4 years ago.

Happy to read anything you can post about the new/additional secure communications equipment...
 
If it was Corbyn or Starmer as PM and doing this, Garnett wouldn’t say a word. It’s literally just because it’s Boris.
Hah. So much fallacy in so few words. Quite a feat.

Tell me, have you seen this...

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/33697639/

... So many facts and events joining me as co-conspirators in the plot to make Johnson look like a mugger of the ignorant.
 
You're asserted a completely strawman argument...

There's no "strawman" because there's no "argument" between us over the painting as we both agree the paint needs redoing, we're just giving different reasons for them doing it i.e me - because its a necessity after 4 years of use, you - because it's drab looking and image counts.

Happy to read anything you can post about the new/additional secure communications equipment...

I realise you may decide that I'm making all this up but thats OK, thats your choice as you're not going to find an reputable "online" source telling you whats being fitted. However, if you are an ex-RAF aircraft engineer, like me, and you still know people in the RAF who work on MRTT, like I do, then you can ask them a question about all the "hoohaa" because caused by this refit/repaint and they'll tell you that it's a mix of "some new and some additional secure comms gear" and, being ex-military and knowing what friends still in the military can/can't be said over an unsecure app, you say thanks and leave it at that.

So I can't tell you what the actual equipment is and, to be blunt, I can't give you any proof that any of what I've said is real and not just some silly "epeen" game, I'm just passing on whatever info I can and leaving it upto others to decide if I'm full of poop or not. However if I had to "guess", and thats all it would be, I would guess that it's might be some form of BLOS/SATCOM upgrade, maybe with an enhanced "denied EW" environment capability. It might be getting ready for the MOD's new Skynet 6 system launching in a few years but it's more likely just new kit due to our excessive dependence on all the US SATCOM gear we piggyback onto, but again all that would just be a guess hence all the "maybe's/could be's" etc.
 
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There's no "strawman" because there's no "argument" between us over the painting as we both agree the paint needs redoing, we're just giving different reasons for them doing it i.e me - because its a necessity after 4 years of use, you - because it's drab looking and image counts.

I realise you may decide that I'm making all this up but thats OK, thats your choice as you're not going to find an reputable "online" source telling you whats being fitted. However, if you are an ex-RAF aircraft engineer, like me, and you still know people in the RAF who work on MRTT, like I do, then you can ask them a question about all the "hoohaa" because caused by this refit/repaint and they'll tell you that it's a mix of "some new and some additional secure comms gear" and, being ex-military and knowing what friends still in the military can/can't be said over an unsecure app, you say thanks and leave it at that.

So I can't tell you what the actual equipment is and, to be blunt, I can't give you any proof that any of what I've said is real and not just some silly "epeen" game, I'm just passing on whatever info I can and leaving it upto others to decide if I'm full of poop or not. However if I had to "guess", and thats all it would be, I would guess that it's might be some form of BLOS/SATCOM upgrade, maybe with an enhanced "denied EW" environment capability. It might be getting ready for the MOD's new Skynet 6 system launching in a few years but it's more likely just new kit due to our excessive dependence on all the US SATCOM gear we piggyback onto, but again all that would just be a guess hence all the "maybe's/could be's" etc.
Thanks. I believe you. Interesting stuff. Would these contacts know the cost of these things? Who's getting the contracts? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's nothing to suggest what you have to say negates what the news reports are saying. Both could be true - ie, some money is being spent on additional tech, and the rest still constitutes a massive overspend.

What are your thoughts (and the thoughts of your contacts) about how this refit is shifting what was a shared RAF/VIP role over to a purely VIP role?
 
Let's not forget that so far we know about an upgrade... to the comms which seems entirely reasonable (at the cost of thousands of man hours ) and a lick of paint ,*thousands of man hous* what is the actual cost?


What dose this the tax payer after the fact?
 
Let's not forget that so far we know about an upgrade... to the comms which seems entirely reasonable (at the cost of thousands of man hours ) and a lick of paint ,*thousands of man hous* what is the actual cost?


What dose this the tax payer after the fact?
I immediately realise that this was a drunken post
 
Would these contacts know the cost of these things? Who's getting the contracts?

The contract work is being carried by Marshalls of Cambridge who do a lot of the deep maintenance level work for the MOD and also carry out some of the bigger modification programmes. The management of Marshalls will bill the MOD for the manhours required and the MOD will supply the parts, usually.

For a generic "big" modification or update, which requires help from an outside company, it usually works like this - The MOD will supply all the new equipment via a BOM (Bill of Materials) and give the company carrying out the work a "modification manual" of how and where to fit this equipment and then the contractors will do the work (fit new boxes, new wiring, new aerials, new controls/displays etc), including some very basic testing (self-test etc). While thats happening the RAF engineers will get training on the new system, how to fix it and how to fully test the system including any the 'secret' bits. I worked on two "big" modification teams when I was still in the RAF, on C-130J's (secure comms kit for Afghan) and on Merlin Mk3's (LAIRCM) alongside both Marshalls and Qinetiq respectively, and thats how they were run. For the far more numerous "small" modifications, the RAF does all the work themselves and it is far more common to happen that way, I've done dozens of these smaller mods.

What are your thoughts (and the thoughts of your contacts) about how this refit is shifting what was a shared RAF/VIP role over to a purely VIP role?

My thoughts - I see it two ways. On one hand it still can be shared with the RAF as it's still a fully functional tanker, just with a different paint scheme which makes no difference to it's performance (that bit is good), but the VIP fit reduces it's "transport/cargo" ability due to the VIP conversion blocking off the front 1/3 of the cabin and it taking too long to fit/remove the VIP stuff to re-role the aircraft for different missions, which is a negative (the original MRTT idea being you can quickly fit/remove things to match whatever combination of seats vs cargo you need for each flight).

On the other hand, while I think having a "dedicated" VIP aircraft makes a lot of sense and the MRTT is a great base model for that, we're stuck in a loop of "it's a great idea but costly, it's costly so lets make it multi-role, its multi-role so it's not ideal for VIP, lets make it VIP only thats a great idea - Looped forever" and I think the country as a whole can't/won't get behind the idea of a dedicated "UK Air Force One" due to the cost (it'd require 2 custom built 2 planes) so we're currently having to make do which isn't the best solution for everyone but it is the most financially acceptable.
 
It's weird how people don't apply any sort of scrutiny to money spent on the NHS, even when their overall spend is £129,000,000,000 vs the £900,000 being spent on a plane. People attending A&E when they don't need to costs the NHS £290m per year, we could have a fleet of planes for that. Zero outrage. Attempts to give the government the correct tools to do their job and there's endless Guardian articles over paultry amounts.
 
The contract work is being carried by Marshalls of Cambridge who do a lot of the deep maintenance level work for the MOD and also carry out some of the bigger modification programmes. The management of Marshalls will bill the MOD for the manhours required and the MOD will supply the parts, usually.

For a generic "big" modification or update, which requires help from an outside company, it usually works like this - The MOD will supply all the new equipment via a BOM (Bill of Materials) and give the company carrying out the work a "modification manual" of how and where to fit this equipment and then the contractors will do the work (fit new boxes, new wiring, new aerials, new controls/displays etc), including some very basic testing (self-test etc). While thats happening the RAF engineers will get training on the new system, how to fix it and how to fully test the system including any the 'secret' bits. I worked on two "big" modification teams when I was still in the RAF, on C-130J's (secure comms kit for Afghan) and on Merlin Mk3's (LAIRCM) alongside both Marshalls and Qinetiq respectively, and thats how they were run. For the far more numerous "small" modifications, the RAF does all the work themselves and it is far more common to happen that way, I've done dozens of these smaller mods.



My thoughts - I see it two ways. On one hand it still can be shared with the RAF as it's still a fully functional tanker, just with a different paint scheme which makes no difference to it's performance (that bit is good), but the VIP fit reduces it's "transport/cargo" ability due to the VIP conversion blocking off the front 1/3 of the cabin and it taking too long to fit/remove the VIP stuff to re-role the aircraft for different missions, which is a negative (the original MRTT idea being you can quickly fit/remove things to match whatever combination of seats vs cargo you need for each flight).

On the other hand, while I think having a "dedicated" VIP aircraft makes a lot of sense and the MRTT is a great base model for that, we're stuck in a loop of "it's a great idea but costly, it's costly so lets make it multi-role, its multi-role so it's not ideal for VIP, lets make it VIP only thats a great idea - Looped forever" and I think the country as a whole can't/won't get behind the idea of a dedicated "UK Air Force One" due to the cost (it'd require 2 custom built 2 planes) so we're currently having to make do which isn't the best solution for everyone but it is the most financially acceptable.
Thanks for that. Easy to see how £1m gets reached. Consider my mind changed.
 
It's weird how people don't apply any sort of scrutiny to money spent on the NHS, even when their overall spend is £129,000,000,000 vs the £900,000 being spent on a plane.
Yes, that's right. No scrutiny of any sort brought to bear on NHS spending.

:rolleyes:

Just how thick are the walls of that echo chamber?
 
+1

Don't forget the media outlets never let a simple thing like the truth get in the way of a good story!

Yep, just fill in the gaps themselves or continently leave out important details.

900k to paint a plane. But actually it's likely to be 850k for a regular service/safety inspection and a 50k paint job which all has to be done anyway.

But whatever, I guess it gets the Guardian some much needed clicks.
 
A two yearly C-check on an A330 can cost upwards of £500K depending on scope.

Question: How do you make a small fortune in aviation?
Answer: Start with a massive fortune!​
 
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