Abbortion

[Inquizitor]

If they exercised proper control over their reproductive systems then most abortions wouldn't have been required in the first place.

So what?

 

[RDM]

I agree but then there is the counter argument that I've demonstrated again and again (and am unwilling to do so again - search if you want the answers) that there is more than one life at stake. Does that mean abortion should be denied - no - but it does not mean we should not be upfront and honest about what exactly we are doing and weigh the decision properly not by pretending their is only one person involved.

I agree that there is more than one life involved, but would disagree that there is more than one person involved. But I think we have gone over this before, it is actually really difficult to quantifiy when a conception becomes an actual life and when that life becomes a person.

I feel I have no right to sanction the termination of a human life UNLESS that termination of that life brings 'less harm' to all concerned. Harm being weighted across all sociological, psychological and physical factors. I have frequently, in past, effectively terminated peoples lives but I did so because I could justify it - not by pretending there was no life there in the first place.

I feel the harm in restricting abortion would be much greater than the current system, even if it is badly abused by some. Would I prefer it if some women didn't use it as an additional form of birth control? Of course, but I think it would be worse if people were not given that option.

 

[dowie]

I agree that this woman deserved to go to prison, it's pretty much beyond question. She knowingly broke the law and that's what got her into trouble. What I don't understand in this thread are people who think that women should be told what they can and can't do with their body. If a woman doesn't want a child, regardless of why she doesn't want it or how she got pregnant, should she be forces to carry it? An unwanted pregnancy could ruin a life, and even two, as if the baby isn't really wanted then I suspect it wouldn't be brought up anywhere near as well (walk through your local council estate and you should see a few examples). Let the woman who's body it is decide whether she wants the baby or not. I'd like to see how 'wrong' a lot of people would think an abortion was if they were pregnant.

That's fine, but you need to draw a line somewhere - 38 weeks is ridiculous, at that point its not just 'your body' but pretty much a full term baby ready to pop out and some rights need to be attributed to the baby. If its unwanted then the woman can hang on for a week or two and give it up for adoption - if she wanted an abortion then it should have been done sooner - ideally at the point where it just required drugs.

 

[dowie]

So what?

So there is an element of personal responsibility there to - you let yourself get to that particular state and when there is the life of another being at stake then the state is going to draw the line somewhere and decide that actually, you can't just make a choice to get rid of that other life beyond that point.

 

[Inquizitor]

So there is an element of personal responsibility there to - you let yourself get to that particular state and when there is the life of another being at stake then the state is going to draw the line somewhere and decide that actually, you can't just make a choice to get rid of that other life beyond that point.

It doesn't matter. As long as women own the body cavities in which foetuses gestate they will be in control of them.

 

[RDM]

So there is an element of personal responsibility there to - you let yourself get to that particular state and when there is the life of another being at stake then the state is going to draw the line somewhere and decide that actually, you can't just make a choice to get rid of that other life beyond that point.

So where do you think the line should be drawn and what exceptions should be made?

 

[Richie]

Some people are pro-choice and some people are anti-abortion. Those views are never going to change regardless of the points put forward by anyone so why don't we just all agree to disagree or, alternatively, continue for another 30 pages of frustrating arguments that ultimately spin into nonsense....

 

[RDM]

Some people are pro-choice and some people are anti-abortion. Those views are never going to change regardless of the points put forward by anyone so why don't we just all agree to disagree or, alternatively, continue for another 30 pages of frustrating arguments that ultimately spin into nonsense....

My wife went from anti-abortion to pro-choice so it is not true that people are not going to change.

 

[Inquizitor]

Some people are pro-choice and some people are anti-abortion. Those views are never going to change regardless of the points put forward by anyone so why don't we just all agree to disagree or, alternatively, continue for another 30 pages of frustrating arguments that ultimately spin into nonsense....

This. And, as always, all that matters is if women will continue to get abortions, and they will, as they always have. Arguing about it on the internet is very silly.

 

[Xordium]

I agree that there is more than one life involved, but would disagree that there is more than one person involved. But I think we have gone over this before, it is actually really difficult to quantifiy when a conception becomes an actual life and when that life becomes a person.

I feel the harm in restricting abortion would be much greater than the current system, even if it is badly abused by some. Would I prefer it if some women didn't use it as an additional form of birth control? Of course, but I think it would be worse if people were not given that option.

Yes we have been over this a bit before! And we are quite close on our respective positions. The difference I think is on the 'person justification' because I believe it takes us into very dangerous ground with people with learning disabilities etc.

To say people won't change is not true - someone who thinks will change on the evidence provided to them if that evidence is persuasive enough. Some people will always believe it is right or wrong but they know that to be true they've not argued themselves into that position. The problem is most people don't base their most important beliefs on anything other than whim and fancy.

 

[Meaker]

If you force a woman to birth a child, then both parents must logically be forced to donate marrow, organs and blood through the life of that child with no choice.

That goes for a father who wants nothing to do with the child too.