Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade

[Angilion]

and where have I said they should be. Again you always jump to the extreme. You've got a problem, go deal with it at therapy because I can't be bothered with people who only see the extremes.

As I said before, I don't regard treating a person as a person as being an extreme position. You do. We're not going to agree on that. You view everyone you assign to a group identity as a collective. I reject the idea of unchosen group identity. You view my position as extreme. I view yours as extreme.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

You're just making things up aren't you, you seem to have conflated different things too. This is just clutching at straws now because you blatantly lied with your intial claim.

This is your original claim:



Yet if you look at what I actually said... I only put down a 10% chance that he'd be acquitted, 35% chance of a mistrial and a total of a 55% chance he'd be found guilty of (at least one of the charges; 35% for the lowest + 15% for the next + 5% for the next.)

If you want you can well ackchually and say one of the charges was manslaughter (I think the other two officially were homicide), it's still rather different from what you claimed.



So just like you then... it's a bit hypocritical, don't try and pretend you didn't have an opinion on the trial, or ditto to the Rittenhouse case - what was your view there again? Did you get that one wrong?

Colonel_Klinck the only man on the internet with no bias, if he airs an opinion then it's all fine, if other people air an opinion then it's just their bias and heaven forbid anyone gets a prediction wrong...

I mean this is literally an internet discussion forum, the general discussion section is full of people airing opinions, since when did you need to be an expert to comment on say Covid, or the war in Ukraine or Brexit or some court cases etc..?

This has all just stemmed from you making up a complete lie and then getting called out on it, seemingly because you're still salty that people had the wrong opinions in some thread from months ago.

Dowie if you think there is a 5% chance of a guilty verdict for murder 2 then that leaves acquitted or mistrial as the only options on that charge. Mistrial will likely mean the trial again or the judge says no you are acquitted. Your whole percentages in that post actually make zero sense as the way you've done it is that he could only be guilty of 1 charge. You've made it all add up to 100 but spread over the variables you've listed when more than 1 were possible because there were multiple charges. In the end he was guilty on all charges, how does that work with your adding up to 100?

You can look through my posts on Rittenhouse trial thread, there won't be many of them, all I said was he should never have been in that position and laws allowing the situation are insane, he was a child.

As for Chauvin, I said I thought he was guilty of murder, I watched the video of him killing Floyd and then doing nothing to help him even after he stopped breathing. That showed a complete disregard for his life, he was indifferent to whether he lived of died. To me that was murder, the jury thought it was murder as well.

And all this only came up with your comment

Oh come on guys, the Kavanaugh accusation was incredibly weak and pure partisan nonsense, it was pretty embarrassing for the main accuser.

So a complete dismissal from you. My point was you don't have great form on these legal cases, you couldn't have been more wrong on the Chauvin case, you weren't the only one though, that thread was full of people saying he was innocent. I said on the Kavanaugh case that I didn't know what the truth was, there was a second claim though that he waggled his dick in the face of a fellow Yale student and there were witnesses to that event. The committee refused to look at that claim.

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[Angilion]

My fairly left leaning friend said that a white comedian shouldn't tell jokes about black people, even if the jokes were basically just poking fun at stereotypes, aren't malicious or done with the intent of racism, while part of an overall act that makes fun of other races and groups, and is fairly light hearted, because it is considered "punching down". Now I'm not sure how he comes to terms with the fact he's classing white people as "up" and black people as "down" yet doesn't consider himself as racist. However, a comedian making fun of everyone equally would be racist.

It's the usual circular self-serving (lack of) rationalisation for prejudice and discrimination - the target deserves to be targetted because they're the target. It's necessary for anyone who wants any particular strain of irrational prejudice to go one way only. Such people have to make up some "reason" why the exact same behaviour is good when directed at the group they want to be the target and absolutely appalling when directed at the group they give superior status. It's not a recent thing, e.g. anti-jewish propaganda in medieval Europe often used the same method. There's only two general approaches for a "reason" why the same thing is so completely different despite being exactly the same. Either the target group deserves it because it's inherently inferior or the target group deserves it because it's privileged. Or both. The latter is easy enough using the "logic" of irrational prejudice. Find someone in the target group who is privileged in some way, apply the doctrine of "they're all the same" and job done - all of the target group are privileged. So, for example, anti-jewish propaganda in medieval Europe often claimed that jews were wealthy money-lenders and therefore privileged, therefore they deserved to be targetted.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

As I said before, I don't regard treating a person as a person as being an extreme position. You do. We're not going to agree on that. You view everyone you assign to a group identity as a collective. I reject the idea of unchosen group identity. You view my position as extreme. I view yours as extreme.

Except I don't and have never said I did. This is my point with you, you jumped in because you saw the subject, you got all aroused and had to post. All I said was there are such things are communities. So there is a LGBT community, doesn't mean ever LGBT person is in it though. You immediately assume that is what it means and off you go on your little rant. Get help, you need it.

 

[Ahleckz]

Nice to see you guys think your bickering is more important than the issue at hand here.
Way to go, destroying a totally valid thread and ignoring the fact this decision will kill countless women. But you guys just have yet another argument about nothing.
It would be funny if this wasn’t so serious.

 

[dowie]

Dowie if you think there is a 5% chance of a guilty verdict for murder 2 then that leaves acquitted or mistrial as the only options on that charge. Mistrial will likely mean the trial again or the judge says no you are acquitted. Your whole percentages in that post actually make zero sense as the way you've done it is that he could only be guilty of 1 charge. You've made it all add up to 100 but spread over the variables you've listed when more than 1 were possible because there were multiple charges. In the end he was guilty on all charges, how does that work with your adding up to 100?

A mistrial is not a guaranteed acquittal, this isn't even relevant to the thread, let's face it you made up a claim you couldn't support and now you're reaching.

I was quite clear that 10% was my belief for acquittal, trying to pretend otherwise is just an outright lie by you.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

Nice to see you guys think your bickering is more important than the issue at hand here.
Way to go, destroying a totally valid thread and ignoring the fact this decision will kill countless women. But you guys just have yet another argument about nothing.
It would be funny if this wasn’t so serious.

Fair enough. Time this was back on topic.

Mississippi House Speaker thinks 12 year old victims of incest should be forced to carry that foetus to full term. Bodes well for women in Mississippi when the most powerful man in the state legislature thinks that way.

A challenge to a Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy made its way to the Supreme Court, where it was upheld in a decision that overturned the landmark Roe v. Wade ruling that guaranteed the right to abortion.

A separate state law passed in 2007 bans abortions outright if Roe were overturned, with exceptions for rape and instances when the mothers life is at risk. The 15-week law does not include a rape exception, and neither law makes exceptions for incest.

The Mississippi Free Press reports that several GOP lawmakers want the rape exception eliminated from the trigger ban, which would mean abortions would only be allowed to save the life of the mother.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543143964345344001

 

[C Kent]

If someone believes life begins at conception then of course they won't have any exceptions outside of death to the mother/child.

 

[Chris Wilson]

As I said before, I don't regard treating a person as a person as being an extreme position. You do. We're not going to agree on that. You view everyone you assign to a group identity as a collective. I reject the idea of unchosen group identity. You view my position as extreme. I view yours as extreme.

What you two need is a mano e mano "special operation" to sort things out

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

If someone believes life begins at conception then of course they won't have any exceptions outside of death to the mother/child.

Yes and it wouldn't matter if he wasn't the speaker of the state legislature where he wields a lot of power. Unfortunately like a lot of politicians he can't leave his personal religious beliefs at the door.

 

[Werewolf]

Fair enough. Time this was back on topic.

Mississippi House Speaker thinks 12 year old victims of incest should be forced to carry that foetus to full term. Bodes well for women in Mississippi when the most powerful man in the state legislature thinks that way.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543143964345344001

A ten year old rape victim had to go to a neighbouring state basically the day after the the decision to overturn Roe vs Wade, because by the time the rape had been reported and a pregnancy test carried out she was 6 weeks and 3 days since her last period.

 

[C Kent]

Yes and it wouldn't matter if he wasn't the speaker of the state legislature where he wields a lot of power. Unfortunately like a lot of politicians he can't leave his personal religious beliefs at the door.

You don't have to be religious to believe that life begins at conception. I also don't see you continuosly badmouth other religions like you do Christianity/Catholicism such as the many Islamic countries where abortion is illegal.

 

[Werewolf]

You don't have to be religious to believe that life begins at conception. I also don't see you continuosly badmouth other religions like you do Christianity/Catholicism such as the many Islamic countries where abortion is illegal.

Oddly enough IIRC several strick Islamic countries are far more accepting of Abortion*...

And as far as I can see he's not bashing all Christians, just the idiotic Christian "Right", the "Evangelical" and parts of the Catholic sects, mainly because they've basically hijacked American poliitics to force women and girls to give birth, even when doing so is immensly harmful to them, and when they had no choice about getting pregnant due to things like rape and incest. It's really telling that in the "pro life"/Forced birth states in America it's more of a crime to protect a woman's life/choice than it is to rape a child and get them pregnant.


*IIRC in Evil Iran it's been legal for nearly 50 years, in Iraq it's legal to protect the mother's life/health, Saudi Arabia has it legal to protect the woman's life or her health/mental health (so basically the same in theory as several European countries).

 

[MadMossy]

You don't have to be religious to believe that life begins at conception. I also don't see you continuosly badmouth other religions like you do Christianity/Catholicism such as the many Islamic countries where abortion is illegal.

Pretty much all religions are against Abortion in one way or another, some allow for the safeguarding of the mother from harm, others its just an out right nope.

 

[Puzzled]

Pretty much all religions are against Abortion in one way or another, some allow for the safeguarding of the mother from harm, others its just an out right nope.

Ends up with ridiculous situations like this

Fears for US woman's life as abortion denied in Malta

Andrea's pregnancy is no longer viable but doctors cannot intervene unless she goes into labour or develops sepsis.

www.bbc.co.uk

Saving the mother should always overrule any outdated religious views.

 

[Kirkyl85]

Land of the free eh?

No words can describe the sheer amount of rage and contempt I feel for those who think a clump of cells matter more than a woman's life and the choices she wants to make. **** everyone who supports this.

 

[MadMossy]

Ends up with ridiculous situations like this

Fears for US woman's life as abortion denied in Malta

Andrea's pregnancy is no longer viable but doctors cannot intervene unless she goes into labour or develops sepsis.

www.bbc.co.uk

Saving the mother should always overrule any outdated religious views.

While I agree, the fact is an overwhelming portion of the US consider themselves religious. Something like 250+ million people. Well over 2/3rds.

Many consider religion a moral framework and those morals change over time. Something considered OK today certainly wasn't 50 or 100 years ago.

 

[Twinz]

Land of the free eh?

No words can describe the sheer amount of rage and contempt I feel for those who think a clump of cells matter more than a woman's life and the choices she wants to make. **** everyone who supports this.

The previous limit was 24 weeks IIRC. I have recently seen imaging of my son and daughter-in-law's baby at 20 weeks.

If you think that's "a clump of cells" there can be no reasoning with you.

 

[Colonel_Klinck]

You don't have to be religious to believe that life begins at conception. I also don't see you continuosly badmouth other religions like you do Christianity/Catholicism such as the many Islamic countries where abortion is illegal.

Oh please this whole movement to strike down Roe is by religious extremists. As someone else has said, 2/3 of Americans consider themselves religious yet 60% of women believe abortion should be legal in most circumstances. What does that tell you? It tells me that the religious extremists are pushing their beliefs on the majority.

I have no issue with anyone believing in a sky fairy, what ever floats your boat. I do take issue with people forcing their beliefs on everyone else and that is exactly what is happening here.

'Pro-Choice' Identification Rises to Near Record High in U.S.

A poll conducted mostly after news broke that the Supreme Court may overturn Roe v. Wade finds an uptick in support for abortion being broadly legal.

news.gallup.com

As for Islam, my understanding is in Islam the foetus isn't considered a life before the "ensoulment" which happens at 120 days, so around 17-18 weeks. Judaism is very liberal when it comes to abortion, the welfare of the mother be it physical or mental takes priority.

I am more than happy to call out human rights being violated by Islamic countries, same with Israel or atheist China etc but the US is a liberal western country, its seen as the leader of the western world yet this is an illiberal move, of course it should be called out.

 

[Werewolf]

As for Islam, my understanding is in Islam the foetus isn't considered a life before the "ensoulment" which happens at 120 days, so around 17-18 weeks. Judaism is very liberal when it comes to abortion, the welfare of the mother be it physical or mental takes priority.

I am more than happy to call out human rights being violated by Islamic countries, same with Israel or atheist China etc but the US is a liberal western country, its seen as the leader of the western world yet this is an illiberal move, of course it should be called out.

Yup, from what I've seen/read of Judism including from several fairly high profile Rabbis who specialise in it, the mothers life, wellbeing and wishes are sacrosanct. If the mother needs an abortion to survive and wishes to survive it must be done, if the mother cannot look after a baby and wishes to have an abortion it should be done, if the mother is not ready/does not want a baby then it should be done.

Islam is fairly similar, but more dependent on country as the same sort of people the Republicans are emulating are often in control, but as I say in Iran it's legal, in Saudi it's legal to save the mothers life.

Meanwhile it's turning out that more and more of these laws that the US forced birth lobby are pushing are literal death sentences, as many of them have few if any exemptions for preserving the life of the mother* it it looks like a whole host of essential medications and treaments are now likely to not even be offered to women who are pregnant, including cancer treatment because the law doesn't make the exemption and a huge number of medications women routinely need/take can cause issues.
Whilst at the same time it's been notoriously hard for women to get things like their tubes tied because "you might want to get pregnant in the future".

It's also as I think I said earlier worth noting that most of these "long held religious beliefs" came into being 5-10 years after Roe vs Wade, and the laws being passed to force women to give birth (or die trying) now are far more restrictive than they ever were before. So it's not even "we're going back to before FvW" it's "if you've got a fertile womb, you belong to us".



*Some hospitals, mainly religious ones (and often the only one with an ER in a town) have a long history of delaying any medical treatment, even essential and potentially life saving things (such as x-rays for neck and internal injuries after major crashes) until anyone who might be fertile and female has had a negative pregnancy test, so you're strapped to a stretcher in agony and they won't even do a neck x-ray until they've got the results (and it's not a litigation thing, it's literally a "we don't support abortion" thing).