Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2011, Yas Marina Circuit - Race 18/19

[FrankJH]

The sequence of race wins were as follows:

Button (Canada)
Vettel (Euro)
Alonso (Britain)
Hamilton (Germany)
Button (Hungary)
------ SUMMER BREAK ------
Vettel (Belgium)
Vettel (Italy)
Vettel (Singapore)

This could've just been a coincidence or down to Vettel's dip in form. But perhaps next year, McLaren and Ferrari need to continue working (on non-factory tasks), throughout the Summer break.

Fair point - but out of interest (and this may be wrong so please correct me) but I SEEM to recall Horner stating a few times that they expected the last few races before the summer break to be tough - but were very confident about the run of races just after.

Now of course even if Im remembering correctly (think it was said at Belgium or Italy) you never know if thats a bit of bluff or whether there was something underlying before the break that was causing issues etc - but there is something about Hungary that RBR dont like , isnt it one of their least favourite tracks?

Obviously they still had to get the points they expected - but that run of results takes on a new complexion if the team in question was actually expecting it (before the break) , if you see what I mean?

Mclaren (but more specifically Hamilton) have led fewer laps year on year.

Year     Laps led
2007	   321
2008	   294
2009	   182
2010	   100
2011	   150

They have to come out of the blocks with a strong car in 2012. They can't keep playing catch-up if they want to take the title from Red Bull.

Taking 2007 out of the equation (as both cars /drivers were practically equal) - there will always be a drop of laps led going from a pretty 2nd rate driver like Kovi in the 2nd car to a previous race / WDC winner like Button. Ie in any given race where the car is capable of leading - odds drop dramatically that it will be LH leading with JB in the second car compared to Kovi, to a much more even spread between both drivers

Also I wonder if the general tactics of F1 has had a big factor in the above - ie McLaren wanting to make the out and out fastest car out there, but since no re-fueling, its not about bieing the fastest anymore

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Those are Hamiltons leading laps.

The point I was making was; Hamilton hasn't had the fastest car for a few years, and if anything, his performance has suffered every year as a result of pushing the car 24/7, compared with RBR that seem to have everyone pegged.

I also think these tyres hurt his performance, so they need a solid car to mount any real challenge.

 

[Skeeter]

I think the 'most' records like laps lead and points, etc can be a bit misleading given the changes in number of races and points awarded. They should be completed to percentages to be comparable.

 

[sunama]

I think the 'most' records like laps lead and points, etc can be a bit misleading given the changes in number of races and points awarded. They should be completed to percentages to be comparable.

I totally agree.

In 1992, Williams produced arguably the best car ever seen (compared to its rivals), over the last 20 years and Mansell was in top form that year. This allowed him to create some crazy records (percentages). For me, the one thing that sticks out for me that year, was when on a dry track at Silverstone, Mansell's qualifying time was approximately 2s faster than his team-mate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of5zNIFa_s4

Now, THAT is dominance and makes Vettels poultry "0.5s ahead of his team-mate" look pathetic.

 

[Skeeter]

Yep. The '14 pole's in a season' is one that has got me recently. Apparently this makes Vettel and Mansell equals, but it doesn't.

Mansell got 14 poles from 16 races, 87.5%
Vettel has 14 poles from 18 races, 73.7%

Event if Vettel gets pole in Brazil its 15 from 19, which is still only 78.9%.

The press are very quick to jump to comparisons based on raw numbers, without putting them into context of the season/era they were achieved.

I expect if you looked back through the history books there is likely a driver who got 100% poles or wins in a season, but because it was from an era where there were less races in a season, its not picked up by the press.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Vettel, he has had a stonking year, I just wish people would make stats comparable before they write comparison articles.

 

[FrankJH]

Those are Hamiltons leading laps.

The point I was making was; Hamilton hasn't had the fastest car for a few years, and if anything, his performance has suffered every year as a result of pushing the car 24/7, compared with RBR that seem to have everyone pegged.

I also think these tyres hurt his performance, so they need a solid car to mount any real challenge.

My point was that given that LH has about 1/2 the number of leading laps in 2011 compared to 2007/08 but he has also shared the number of wins in the team this year - I dont know for sure but its a good bet that JB is good for another 100 or so (admittedly his win in Canada was a bit of an odd one in that he didnt lead a complete lap even though he won the race)

Your figures are deceptive in that for the last two years LH has shared the team wins (and therefore the leading laps) where as for two seasons previous to that any time the car was good enough to lead the race odds on he was likely to be doing it (did Heikki ever win for McLaren, I dont believe so from my recollection)

So while McLaren havent had the fastest car for a few years, its not as bad as those figures look

(also an out and out racer like Lewis may possibly see more effect on no refueling/ or wearing tyres faster than a more strategic racer like JB)

Yep. The '14 pole's in a season' is one that has got me recently. Apparently this makes Vettel and Mansell equals, but it doesn't.
.

I think a few people mentioned this after qualifying - I know I did

 

[3dcandy]

Heikki won twice I think for McLaren...but yes the points are valid.

 

[ps3ud0]

What drugs are you on? Mirrors being racist?

i love this mirrors excuse..


how come at monza were lead to believe schumacher knew where lewis was down to the last milimetre? but everytime lewis has a coming together with someone its always because the mirrors dont work

Think I was being too subtle - was agreeing with the point that for some the mirrors only don't seem to work for Hamilton; while others drivers aren't allowed to use the same excuse if it disadvantages Hamilton...

Same double standards goes for driving lines too

ps3ud0

 

[3dcandy]

James Allen talking about a Honda return as an engine manufacturer in 2014...
???

 

[Skeeter]

Good good. Are Cosworth building a 2014 spec engine? The more manufacturers the better!

 

[Setroc]

I'm a bit worried about the 2014 engines. Renault will be in a good position to make a top notch engine, as they seem to be very interested in the technology for the smaller turboed engines. I'd hate to see RBR gain an engine advantage to match their chassis advantage.

It's also likely that the divide between the haves and have-nots will increase with the new engines.

I really enjoyed back in around 2008 when the regulations had been steady for a long time and the field was very tightly packed from top to bottom. The top 10 in quali were often seperated by only a second. At the moment that has occassionally been the gap between just first and second.

 

[3dcandy]

I agree, the renault will be THE engine, they have huge experience in that field and already make large amounts of turbo engines. Next up I reckon will be Merc though they use supercharging rather than turbo's in their engines. My guess is Williams understand this and thus why they were in a huge push to get renault on board...

 

[FrankJH]

Think I was being too subtle - was agreeing with the point that for some the mirrors only don't seem to work for Hamilton; while others drivers aren't allowed to use the same excuse if it disadvantages Hamilton...

Same double standards goes for driving lines too

ps3ud0

ooohhh ok

I still think it would be nigh on impossible to see a silver/grey McLaren in the pouring rain as in Canada through those tiny /shaking mirrors (although a bright red Ferrari in clear weather should be easy enough)

Im not sure about knowing from the sound of the engine , given yours will always appear louder, yes it might give an idea (but not something to make much judgement about ) - and again in the rain the accoustics would change also

but hey its all water under the bridge now



The Merc (engine) seperation from McLaren was due to be complete by the time the new engine agreement is first raced , is this still the case? (I was thinking during the super car program last night if Ricardo were going to be building the McLaren f1 engine as well as the MP4 unit)?..... or back to McLaren Honda?

 

[Skeeter]

I'm a bit worried about the 2014 engines. Renault will be in a good position to make a top notch engine, as they seem to be very interested in the technology for the smaller turboed engines. I'd hate to see RBR gain an engine advantage to match their chassis advantage.

It's also likely that the divide between the haves and have-nots will increase with the new engines.

I really enjoyed back in around 2008 when the regulations had been steady for a long time and the field was very tightly packed from top to bottom. The top 10 in quali were often seperated by only a second. At the moment that has occassionally been the gap between just first and second.

AFAIK, there is a limit on how much the engines can be sold to a team for, which should be affordable for all teams. So yes, while it may be possible for some engine manufacturers to build a great 2014 engine, there's nothing stopping any other team buying those engines.

You will also likely have a number of engine manufacturers who don't also own teams, so there wont be squewed interest towards a single team.

Assuming Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes and Cosworth all stay, adding PURE and Honda takes us to 6 different engine manufacturers, and I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota jump back in if Honda do.

 

[3dcandy]

Toyota are saying they won't join, pretty firmly against it as far as I know. Ferrari will be there, Renault, Mercedes and Cosworth if they have any teams left...

 

[Skeeter]

If it was still the I4 format then Toyota would be all over it. However, I cant see them sitting there and watching Honda compete.

 

[Setroc]

Well look at how renault value their partnership with RBR at the moment. They clearly think that being an engine manufacturer even now is extremely valuable to them. And this is at a time when engines are effectively equalised and no one really talks about them. In 2014 engines are going to be the number one subject on the cars, and probably one of the largest factor in determining the best car. If renault are getting so much mileage out of the current regs then it must be worth considering 2014 for other manufacturers.

 

[sunama]

In 2014 engines are going to be the number one subject on the cars, and probably one of the largest factor in determining the best car.

Can you elaborate on this?
What is happening in 2014 which would make it the most important part in determining absolute performance of the car?

 

[Skeeter]

Can you elaborate on this?
What is happening in 2014 which would make it the most important part in determining absolute performance of the car?

I think the potential for differences in performance between different engine manufacturers is what he is getting at.

Current engines are very equal as they have been regulated to be so. There is massive potential for someone to build an engine 2s faster than the competition in 2014.

After hundreds of days and millions of hours of aero work, at the end of the day the engine they strap to the back of it could determine if a car is at the front or in the midfield. If I was running a team, I would want as much data as possible from every engine supplier as soon as possible.