After 16 years i've left local gov

[dowie]

so it sounds like some initial implementation issues rather than a problem with the concept itself

 

[jsmoke]

^exactly, the concept sounds OK, not that I really even know what that is. So why is it taking so long, is this a deterrent tactic or a backlog of paperwork etc.

 

[Minusorange]

Nothing.

However, the rollout (up to 3 months without ANY payments coming in, and these are people with no savings at all) is causing people to dip into the realms of misery and then offering no reasonable way out and causing people to become ill/desperate and some take drastic actions.

Oh let's not forget the latest charade, taking Universal Credit all online

What happens if you're broke and can't afford internet to use the new (read likely full of bugs galore) online service ? Or don't have an email address ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44565680

It's bad enough for people without a passport or driving license and this just scratches the surface of all the issues

 

[Fubsy]

Taking it online *should* make all the admin cheaper though, so that makes sense.

It's been a while since I was in a Job Centre, but do they not have terminals available for this sort of use? I know when I was last unemployed they would provide telephones for job hunting and contacting the DWP.

The ID thing is something that needs to be made mandatory, or a more accessible option available. Being able to prove who you are should be something everyone should be able and know how to do. More education required on importance of having and keeping these things up to date?

 

[Doogles]

I have a fix, can't we just get a dictator in?

 

[Werewolf]

Taking it online *should* make all the admin cheaper though, so that makes sense.

It's been a while since I was in a Job Centre, but do they not have terminals available for this sort of use? I know when I was last unemployed they would provide telephones for job hunting and contacting the DWP.

The ID thing is something that needs to be made mandatory, or a more accessible option available. Being able to prove who you are should be something everyone should be able and know how to do. More education required on importance of having and keeping these things up to date?

Taking it all online only really moves more of the cost onto those that are often struggling for money, or onto local councils (whose libraries will likely end up providing that online access, and assistance to people who may not be able to use a computer well).

Paper may cost more, but it's a system that works and is accessible to those who may be struggling to just keep the lights on, let alone have a computer/internet connection.

The basic idea of UC makes some sense, but it's an absolute shambles the way it's been implemented, the idea of moving everything fully online only makes sense if everyone both has easy access to online services, and is able to use them (a lot won't be able to, either due to disabilities, educational issues, or simply never having used computers much/at all).

 

[Minusorange]

Taking it online *should* make all the admin cheaper though, so that makes sense.

It's been a while since I was in a Job Centre, but do they not have terminals available for this sort of use? I know when I was last unemployed they would provide telephones for job hunting and contacting the DWP.

The ID thing is something that needs to be made mandatory, or a more accessible option available. Being able to prove who you are should be something everyone should be able and know how to do. More education required on importance of having and keeping these things up to date?

And what about the disabled people who are unable to get in to the job centre to use those terminals or are physically unable to use a computer ?

Online service is great as long as you have the use of your arms and/or aren't blind and know how to use a computer from home

Just because we all use the internet doesn't mean there isn't millions of people who choose not to either out of fear of technology or simply have no interest

 

[Fubsy]

Yep hence my **... Multiple options should be available.

Online costs the applicant if using a personal connection, online requires computing skill. Paper requires a small cost to the applicant (postage, envelope etc), you have to go to the post box/PO, post can be lost and that will also cause delays, disability and educational concerns also affect people when filling out forms. Over the phone solves some of those problems (not cost). There's no perfect, fair solution - someone will always be at a disadvantage for some reason or another, and while people are involved there will be delays because they make mistakes, lose things, misunderstand etc.

However, I think technology does help people who have access and are willing to use it, it's certainly made some of the things I used to have to do with paper forms a hell of a lot easier in terms of completing and tracking progress.

EDIT: How do people without use of their arms/blind fill out forms? They need help I'm sure to do that, so the same applies to online form filling?

 

[Minusorange]

However, I think technology does help people who have access and are willing to use it, it's certainly made some of the things I used to have to do with paper forms a hell of a lot easier in terms of completing and tracking progress.

I agree but I also don't think it should be the only solution as I don't believe people should be forced into using technology if they don't want to use it

Re: your edit... guide dogs

 

[StriderX]

I'm actually surprised the jobcentres haven't had more trouble, they're the frontlines of the Tory machine to kill off the mildly unfortunate regardless of their circumstances.

You'd atleast think they'd be the target of theft or assault more often than not?

 

[Sankari]

Can someone explain what Universal Credit is, and why it's so bad? Honest question.

 

[Efour]

ITs a new way to "simplify" the UK benefits claiming system (which is currently a mess) it replaces 6 or so other things you could apply for separately.

Problem is its been really slow to get people onto it, people have gone weeks or months without money in the worst cases.

Its not bad it's just a lot of people are bitter at its bad implementation. Its meant to have saved a lot of administration costs but as usual its probably costing a ton more than the older systems.

a lot of people on here are probably benefit scrounger types, and that's why it often gets really bad press.

 

[Werewolf]

I'm actually surprised the jobcentres haven't had more trouble, they're the frontlines of the Tory machine to kill off the mildly unfortunate regardless of their circumstances.

You'd atleast think they'd be the target of theft or assault more often than not?

I'm surprised in some areas they haven't had to have proper security staff on site, people's emotions can get very heated when they need assistance to look after their family and incompetance by the government is stopping it happening.

IIRC ALL DLA/PIP type tribunals now tend to have proper security (at least those where a judge is taking part), because about 15 years ago someone attacked a judge at one of them, given how DWP utterly messed up my mother's case* around the same time I could understand how utterly angry people get in such cases.


*She lost her mobility and care allowance which meant the car she relied on to get to things like doctors and hospital appointments.
It took something like 16 months before anyone read the DWP's own doctors report and saw the "cannot walk", and they completely ignored the letters from her GP and one of the best orthopaedic surgeons in the country.
Yes I'm still quite bitter about it, as it caused her and my father a lot of completely unnecessary pain/worry because no one involved at DWP did their job, in her case the independent Tribunal was the first time anyone had read the evidence for her claim properly - so it probably cost DWP several grand in admin.

 

[Werewolf]

ITs a new way to "simplify" the UK benefits claiming system (which is currently a mess) it replaces 6 or so other things you could apply for separately.

Problem is its been really slow to get people onto it, people have gone weeks or months without money in the worst cases.

Its not bad it's just a lot of people are bitter at its bad implementation. Its meant to have saved a lot of administration costs but as usual its probably costing a ton more than the older systems.

a lot of people on here are probably benefit scrounger types, and that's why it often gets really bad press.

I really hope you're being sarcastic there, as the UC is from memory going to affect everything from those who are too disabled to work, to those who are working ungodly hours in ***** jobs that don't pay enough to cover the basic cost of living but are essential to the smooth running of vital services.

Given the government's previous history with changes to pretty much every method of paying money out to citizens, or collecting it, and how long it takes them to admit (not fix, but admit) there is a problem I can quite see why people are giving it a "bad press", especially when there are people who are not getting any money from the government that they should be getting, for weeks or months at a time because the system they're moving them onto can't cope.
It's the government failing in very basic processes, not because they're aiming to make a change that will improve people's lives, but because they're making a change that will (in theory*) make it easier and cheaper to administer the payments, and despite the warnings and the amount of time it's been going on for still don't have processes in place to assist those that it's failing (although I think they did finally allow for more "advance payments" which are then repaid back at a fairly fast rate once the UC stuff is finally sorted for the person).



*Does anyone know how far behind and over budget the rollout is at the moment?

 

[ahar]

Universal Credit has been a complete disaster in implementation and it's not hard to predict that this would have happened.

I was the solution architect for the front end of the systems that run ESA (Employment and Support Allowance) and ended up running (alongside a DWP manager) all the teams doing the business implementation (training, business process etc). UC as an idea (not called that of course) had been floating around the strategy groups in DWP for a while before we started ESA in 2006, its just that no one was stupid enough to try and implement it as it was going to be too hard to do without screwing it up. A previous attempt at combining a couple of benefits had been tried in 2004/5 and ended in failure, costing £millons.

Some of my colleagues from the ESA implementation (which by the way was expensive but a huge success, in that you will notice the complete lack of headlines about it not working) went on to work on UC - they were very smart, very capable people, but this was just too hard.

 

[Efour]

I really hope you're being sarcastic there, as the UC is from memory going to affect everything from those who are too disabled to work, to those who are working ungodly hours in ***** jobs that don't pay enough to cover the basic cost of living but are essential to the smooth running of vital services.

Given the government's previous history with changes to pretty much every method of paying money out to citizens, or collecting it, and how long it takes them to admit (not fix, but admit) there is a problem I can quite see why people are giving it a "bad press", especially when there are people who are not getting any money from the government that they should be getting, for weeks or months at a time because the system they're moving them onto can't cope.
It's the government failing in very basic processes, not because they're aiming to make a change that will improve people's lives, but because they're making a change that will (in theory*) make it easier and cheaper to administer the payments, and despite the warnings and the amount of time it's been going on for still don't have processes in place to assist those that it's failing (although I think they did finally allow for more "advance payments" which are then repaid back at a fairly fast rate once the UC stuff is finally sorted for the person).

*Does anyone know how far behind and over budget the rollout is at the moment?

You basically just rewrote what i said from an emotional POV

 

[Eurofighter]

I have schizophrenia and am on benefits for now, i do have a part time job but mostly rely on PIP and ESA. I have moved house to a Universal Credit area and I haven't had any money in a month other than PIP and a £150 loan.

Luckily my parents can help me out. But that isn;t the case for many. No wonder the job centre is full of security guards.

Labour all the way. And I was a Labour supporter before I got ill and always will be.


People shouldn't be made to go for 5 weeks without any money. How can you say that is right?

 

[Efour]

I signed on for a bit under a labour government. It was exactly the same.

 

[cheesyboy]

Universal income, every person gets enough to be able to house, feed and keep themselves warm during winter, basically enough money to survive, want anything more and well.... you'll have to work for it

Sure you'll have folk who will do the bare minimum but you'll find a lot more will be productive and the vast majority will have much happier lives as a result

Or we continue down this path of ultimate self destruction that society is on course towards

Thumbs up from me

 

[RaohNS]

Universal income, every person gets enough to be able to house, feed and keep themselves warm during winter, basically enough money to survive, want anything more and well.... you'll have to work for it

Sure you'll have folk who will do the bare minimum but you'll find a lot more will be productive and the vast majority will have much happier lives as a result

That sounds like a line straight from Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.

Your solution therefore is [the failed notion of] socialism?