Ageia Tests Next-Generation PhysX Accelerators

Pottsey · 31 Aug 2007 at 22:38

“Yes but back then with the original voodoo cards there was an immedite obvious impressive difference. What did people see with the first physx enabled games?”
Voodoo cards didn’t show up till about 3 to 4 years into the 3dcard market. Developers already had years of getting used to coding for 3dcards. The physics card market is starting just like the 3dcard market. Well no, its doing better there are more PPU games a year into the PPU market then there where 3d games a year into the 3dcard market.

Gerard · 31 Aug 2007 at 22:57

Pottsey said:
Voodoo cards didn’t show up till about 3 to 4 years into the 3dcard market. Developers already had years of getting used to coding for 3dcards. The physics card market is starting just like the 3dcard market. Well no, its doing better there are more PPU games a year into the PPU market then there where 3d games a year into the 3dcard market.

Back then most 3d cards were known as 3d decellerators due to their crappy performance, the voodoo came around and showed people what could be done and what was possible. Everyone jumped on that bandwagon, the same cannot be said of ageia.

ps3ud0 · 31 Aug 2007 at 23:14

Pottsey said:
“Yes but back then with the original voodoo cards there was an immedite obvious impressive difference. What did people see with the first physx enabled games?”
Voodoo cards didn’t show up till about 3 to 4 years into the 3dcard market. Developers already had years of getting used to coding for 3dcards. The physics card market is starting just like the 3dcard market. Well no, its doing better there are more PPU games a year into the PPU market then there where 3d games a year into the 3dcard market.

Thats pretty much incorrect - please check your facts...

Developers had to code to the Glide API which wasnt based on D3D (unsure if that was a discrete component of DX API back then - but Glide worked totally differently to DX) and was totally new (just like Physx API is to Havoks) so in reality its a fair comparison and really illuminates how badly Ageia and their PPU are doing...

Also it was actually 1year before Voodoo cards came on the market (S3 Virge - 1995; Diamond Monster Voodoo 1 card - late 1996) - how long has Havok been doing physics?

ps3ud0 :cool:

Pottsey · 31 Aug 2007 at 23:19

“Developers had to code to the Glide API which wasnt based on D3D (unsure if that was a discrete component of DX API back then) and was totally new“
I stand by what I said. First voodoos looked no better then what was already out in fact in some ways it was worse. Lok at Quake on 3DFX for an example, at least at the start. Over time Glide got much better. That and Glide is based on OpenGL which had been out a while. Glide is just mini OpenGL.

“Also it was actually 1year before Voodoo cards came on the market (S3 Virge - 1995;”
I had a 3Dcard and 3dgames back in 1994 way before the S3 Virge. Wasn’t Dx2 out by 1995? Voodoos didn’t come out till October 1996. The first 3dcards where 1994. Though I was wrong it was more like 2 to 3 years. Not 3 to 4. Depends on when you start counting.

ps3ud0 · 31 Aug 2007 at 23:29

Pottsey said:
“Developers had to code to the Glide API which wasnt based on D3D (unsure if that was a discrete component of DX API back then) and was totally new“
I stand by what I said. First voodoos looked no better then what was already out in fact in some ways it was worse, at least at the start. Over time Glide got better. That and Glide is based on OpenGL which had been out a while. Glide is just mini OpenGL.

Its been a while since Ive looked up on Glide, but if I remember correctly it worked totally differently to other 3D APIs where instead of working on hardware via an abstraction layer which allowed flexibility in the hardware the software was accessing; Glide was proprietary and only worked on 3dfx products and was its double edge sword - it allowed developers to get the best of the hardware since they could directly access the hardware at a low level (which is why it had so much impact) but as soon as DX became the main 3D API to code for fell by the wayside. Pretty sure OGL works on the same ideals as DX (abstraction layer rather than direct low-level access)...

Pottsey said:
“Also it was actually 1year before Voodoo cards came on the market (S3 Virge - 1995;”
Strange that as I had a 3Dcard and 3dgames back in 1994 way before the S3 Virge. Wasn’t Dx2 out by 1995?

As far as Im aware S3 Virge was the first 3d accelerator chip to hit the market - I actually bought one in September 1995 (STB Velocity VX). If you can remember what card you had it would be good to verify; though it still falls substantially short of your statement that it was 3-4years before Voodoo cards came out. Unsure what your point about DX2 brings to the table :confused:

...

EDIT: DX2 came out in 1996 looking at Wiki...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Pottsey · 31 Aug 2007 at 23:43

“Its been a while since Ive looked up on Glide, but if I remember correctly it worked totally differently to other 3D APIs where instead of working”
It worked very differently from D3D but the same as OpenGL. Glide was OpenGL stripped down. They took the massive OpenGL feature set and striped it down to the base features needed for gaming. Then they implanted those features into hardware and called it Glide. Well a little more then that but Glide is based on OpenGL. Pretty much any card with OpenGL can be made to run Glide.

“As far as Im aware S3 Virge was the first 3d accelerator chip to hit the market –“
There was the Impression Plus in 1994 from Matrox. Later in 1994 there was the Matrox Millennium the first 3Dcard I owned it came bundled with NASCAR Racing.

ps3ud0 · 1 Sep 2007 at 00:01

Ill bow down to your better knowledge on Glide and Ive never even heard of the Impression Plus :confused:

, though I forgot about the Matrox Millenium (lovely chip - didnt know it had a 3d accelerator)

Anyway I still think the comparison is valid and indicates how poorly Agiea is performing - Id be very surprised if we will be using their hardware in a few years time. I think though their API might be more useful in the long-term...

ps3ud0 :cool:

Cyber-Mav · 1 Sep 2007 at 00:14

only rival to 3dfx at the time was the powervr chip from nec/videologic. although its deffered rendering method was hit and miss half the time. but some games did look damn good on it like ultimate race.

SteveOBHave · 1 Sep 2007 at 09:44

ps3ud0 said:
Anyway I still think the comparison is valid and indicates how poorly Agiea is performing - Id be very surprised if we will be using their hardware in a few years time. I think though their API might be more useful in the long-term...

ps3ud0

Damn sleep and missing out on the rest of this conversation.

I have to agree - I think Ageia is on to a good thing with their API and clearly many games devs think the same thing. Like you I struggle to see the continued implementation of an add in card being the way forward.

Another reason why I see this is that the whole SLi/Crossfire thing simply isn't as prevalent as it was just 1-2 years ago - we're getting handed the power on one card and consumers are responding to that. Fundamentally a consumer is almost always going to go for the bigger band for their buck.

taz488 said:
stop defending the dire product, and accept that its simply not worth it in any way shape or form. pottsey go be a fanboy to something half decent.

Unfair call taz488 - Pottsey has as much right as any of us here to offer an opinion and make comment. He offers an educated and experienced opinion to the debate - and IMO this is what makes the debate more interesting - it's no fun if we're all of the same opinion.

Talrinys · 1 Sep 2007 at 11:00

Pottsey said:
“Yes but back then with the original voodoo cards there was an immedite obvious impressive difference. What did people see with the first physx enabled games?”
Voodoo cards didn’t show up till about 3 to 4 years into the 3dcard market. Developers already had years of getting used to coding for 3dcards. The physics card market is starting just like the 3dcard market. Well no, its doing better there are more PPU games a year into the PPU market then there where 3d games a year into the 3dcard market.

And they are extremely useless and boring titles, so the point is?

Pottsey · 1 Sep 2007 at 11:09

Just because you don’t like the titles doesn’t mean others don’t. Some of the games are pretty popular. BOS is a popular line in France and Germany, I like it my self, just orded the 3rd BOS game.

GRAW, MOH, COH and others might not be in the millions and liked as much as say HL 2 but they are in the 100,000’s.

BOS and Scared 2 when its out are the mean reason I have a PPU. Without them it wouldn’t be worth it for me.

Talrinys · 1 Sep 2007 at 13:41

Pottsey said:
Just because you don’t like the titles doesn’t mean others don’t. Some of the games are pretty popular. BOS is a popular line in France and Germany, I like it my self, just orded the 3rd BOS game.

GRAW, MOH, COH and others might not be in the millions and liked as much as say HL 2 but they are in the 100,000’s.

BOS and Scared 2 when its out are the mean reason I have a PPU. Without them it wouldn’t be worth it for me.

Still isn't a huge portion of games, and there is no actual reason to get a PPU for those. Besides Cellfactor was a very very nice demo as we all know

Pottsey · 1 Sep 2007 at 13:48

“Besides Cellfactor was a very very nice demo as we all know ”
I know I shouldnt respond to that but Cellfactor was a tech demo. Cellfactor Revolution is a full game.

“Still isn't a huge portion of games, and there is no actual reason to get a PPU for those”
Depends what you mean by no reason. Few of the PPU games need a PPU but most of them do have a difference with it.

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64S7-uLQiC4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irc2gxNfwU8
PPU in lightwave. Not a game.

gary996 · 1 Sep 2007 at 15:17

I think that if suddenly (perhaps when) the ppu became implemented into a lot more games and sped them up considerably every one would have one.

cavemanoc · 1 Sep 2007 at 19:23

I'm very surprised the Aegis card hasn't taken off (and really can't understand the hostility that some people seem to hold towards it.) I'm always keen on innovation - even if the original idea doesn't work particularly well, it acts as a springboard for the next generation (how many of the original 3D card manufacturers are still in the market...) I firmly believe that in-game physics is a growth area - pure Graphics is starting to plateau and it will have to be other areas that take the lead, and I for one would love to interact with a truely 'physics-driven' world. Much of the success of HL2 came from the novel ways it implemented physics into gameplay - and that was child's play compared to what's possible with a hardware solution!

I wouldn't be surprised if physics hardware wasn't integrated into either the GFX card or onto the mobo the same way separate 2d/3d cards combined all those years ago. (I still remember the first time - and I WAS impressed

)

But I certainly wouldn't write it off, and I for one hope they succeed and go on to bigger and better things - give me physics based environments I say - no more of this canned reaction nonsense!

The other thing I meant to say... The reason it was so easy for 3D cards to slot in was a combination of the fact that the game turnaround back then was much quicker (new hardware could arrive and be included within a very short time as it didn't take long to produce the games - not like the extensive developement times we see now.) And the level of technical complexity was much lower - the mid-nineties was still an era when a guy in his basement could produce a polished commercial hit - again - different market now makes it much harder for products trying to break into the market.

The_Vindicator · 1 Sep 2007 at 22:08

for those interested there is a brief article on the net about Ageia PhysX - it really works! cant post a link so try google.

and as for upcoming game support.

Further, Unreal Engine 3, which includes Ageia PhysX, has so far been licensed 127 times (at the time of writing) meaning there’s a load of games on the way that’ll use that PhysX card... handy, eh?

Pottsey · 2 Sep 2007 at 07:28

That’s a little misleading by that site. Just because a game user’s the Unreal 3 engine it does not mean it will support the PPU. We already have UT 3 engine games out without PPU support. I dont expact all 127+ games to support the PPU.

Talrinys · 2 Sep 2007 at 09:22

Pottsey said:
That’s a little misleading by that site. Just because a game user’s the Unreal 3 engine it does not mean it will support the PPU. We already have UT 3 engine games out without PPU support. I dont expact all 127+ games to support the PPU.

True, just means they support the PhysX engine, which is absolutely brilliant, and a serious competitor to Havok

That doesn't change my stance on the PPU though, but the Aegia guys and gals know how to make a physics engine, and competition is always good.
Besides this is probably which will keep them alive and kicking for the time being, can't imagine PPU sales being good at all.

Talrinys · 2 Sep 2007 at 09:23

Pottsey said:
“Besides Cellfactor was a very very nice demo as we all know ”
I know I shouldnt respond to that but Cellfactor was a tech demo. Cellfactor Revolution is a full game.

“Still isn't a huge portion of games, and there is no actual reason to get a PPU for those”
Depends what you mean by no reason. Few of the PPU games need a PPU but most of them do have a difference with it.

EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64S7-uLQiC4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irc2gxNfwU8
PPU in lightwave. Not a game.

Yeah but as far as i am concerned i could as well spend the money on an extra graphics card, which in turn will work with every single game?
A PPU needs to support Havok and previous physics systems too, and give a major performance boost doing so, before they are actually a worthwhile purchase. With that said i'll probably even be buying one of these new ones, simply to test it.

XtAsY · 2 Sep 2007 at 09:37

That image has been modified for sure. The green rectangle on the left hand side of the heat sink kind of gives it away and the faint text on the bottom of the heat sink has also been photoshopped in.