Alec Baldwin fatally shoots woman with prop gun on movie set

[BUDFORCE]

Squib loads are even scarier than a hang fire when they happen to inexperienced shooters or during rapid fire drills when even veteran shooters might not notice a different in report and recoil.

Yup, or you forget to put the powder in the load when hand loading your own ammunition, the primer typically has enough force to get the round half way up the barrel, obviously there is a big difference, but if your don't notice and put another round up you've got a problem.

If your lucky the barrel will bulge, and it'll ruin your gun, if your unlucky the pressure will go back and blow parts of the back of the gun towards your face/neck.

It very nearly happened to me when I hadn't been shooting for that long, I was using a knackered old Ruger 10/22 the thing wasn't great and wasn't unusual for a miss feed, but a fired a round and felt really weird, was almost going to think nothing of it until I saw this white granulated stuff on the bench, looked a bit like sugar, then realised that was powder, and sure enough the round had only half gone off. The range officer at the time was pretty grateful that I had noticed.

Not quite the same but same principle applies - a guy on a YouTube channel, Kentucky Ballistics (I'll link below) but he had a dodgy round which was 4 times over pressure, it blew the back of the rifle out into his neck and basically it's a miracle he survived.

 

[ttaskmaster]

You dont get any recoil from firing a blank, unless it's one which is for a machine gun as these have cardboard bullets in them which are shredded by an attachment to the barrel.

They don't have cardboard bullets.
The casing is longer than normal and crimped, as seen in the very photo you posted to produce a slightly shorter round. The Blank Fire Attatchment (BFA), ie the bright yellow bit on the end, is a muzzle plug to restrict gas flow and provide enough back-pressure to cycle the action, while also diverting the resulting hot gasses and burning propellant particulates from flying directly forward.
You'll also notice the Rifleman nearest the camera has an L7 with a yellow-handled barrel, indicating that this has been headspaced specifically for blank rounds. There should also be a yellow bit on the feed tray to stop live rounds and aid in feeding the shorter blanks.

Regarding weapon safety checks - 13 year old cadets are taught basic weapon safety, with no great difficulty, so surely a fully grown adult can cope.
They spend weeks or months learning to feign all that tactical door-kicker **** with SWAT teams, so a couple of hours to learn basic safety checks would be no problem.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Event: Woman dies under tragic circumstances.

GD: ACKTSHUALLY you'll also notice the Rifleman nearest the camera has an L7 with a yellow-handled barrel, indicating that this has been headspaced specifically for blank rounds. There should also be a yellow bit on the feed tray to stop live rounds and aid in feeding the shorter blanks.

 

[Thekwango]

Event: Woman dies under tragic circumstances.

GD: ACKTSHUALLY you'll also notice the Rifleman nearest the camera has an L7 with a yellow-handled barrel, indicating that this has been headspaced specifically for blank rounds. There should also be a yellow bit on the feed tray to stop live rounds and aid in feeding the shorter blanks.

you not having a good day dude, you seem a tad tetchy which isn't like you

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

you not having a good day dude, you seem a tad tetchy which isn't like you

Zen like Ben, babes.

However, noted, and thank you.

 

[MartinPrince]

Some of the lack of critical judgement displayed in this thread is staggering.

I suppose those same people who think Baldwin should have been found guilty of manslaughter would also think the lady who crashed through a school fence and killed two girls should also have been found guilty of manslaughter.

The "cause" has been diluted from their reasoning and all they can focus on is the "result".

 

[ttaskmaster]

GD: ACKTSHUALLY...

Sorry, I'm not that practiced in GD etiquette - Should I instead have just blamed it on urban youth or the Tories?

I suppose those same people who think Baldwin should have been found guilty of manslaughter would also think the lady who crashed through a school fence and killed two girls should also have been found guilty of manslaughter.

The cause of the crash was deemed not predictable or preventable, and thus the perpetrator not charged.
The shooting caused by lack of safe firearms handling is clearly both predictable and preventable. Baldwin should at least have been tried.

 

[dlockers]

The shooting caused by lack of safe firearms handling is clearly both predictable and preventable. Baldwin should at least have been tried.

Pretty basic logic here. I agree.

Unless it was a live scene and he was handed a gun inadvertently carrying a live round, and the scene was to shoot someone; there is no reason why this shouldn't be manslaughter.

Guns are bad, mmmkay.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Unless it was a live scene and he was handed a gun inadvertently carrying a live round, and the scene was to shoot someone; there is no reason why this shouldn't be manslaughter.

Even simpler safety rules - Doesn't matter what kind of scene you are doing, once that gun is in your hands you are responsible for anything that happens thereafter, so it's on YOU to make sure what you've just taken responsibility for is safe. Doesn't matter who else has done whatever checks, you still check it for yourself. Takes mere moments, job done, no-one dies.

 

[dlockers]

Even simpler safety rules - Doesn't matter what kind of scene you are doing, once that gun is in your hands you are responsible for anything that happens thereafter, so it's on YOU to make sure what you've just taken responsibility for is safe. Doesn't matter who else has done whatever checks, you still check it for yourself. Takes mere moments, job done, no-one dies.

Agree other than I don't know to what extent an actor can take responsibility for the contents of the round itself.

 

[something daft already!!]

They don't have cardboard bullets.
The casing is longer than normal and crimped, as seen in the very photo you posted to produce a slightly shorter round. The Blank Fire Attatchment (BFA), ie the bright yellow bit on the end, is a muzzle plug to restrict gas flow and provide enough back-pressure to cycle the action, while also diverting the resulting hot gasses and burning propellant particulates from flying directly forward.

When I used to fire the Bren gun they did. This was around 40 years ago. It may have changed since then
We would fire it directly into vegetation and it was a bit like that scene from predator. I guess things move on.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Agree other than I don't know to what extent an actor can take responsibility for the contents of the round itself.

Enough that they can easily tell the difference between dummy, blank, live and snap-cap... and if they have any doubts or confusion, to check with the armourer directly.

When I used to fire the Bren gun they did. This was around 40 years ago. It may have changed since then
We would fire it directly into vegetation and it was a bit like that scene from predator. I guess things move on.

They've been crimped since the late 80s, at least. Our SLR training rounds were crimped, as were the GMPG and later L85/86 rounds.
Pistol calibres were slightly different, with longer cases that were rounded over and the hold plugged with a disintegrating plastic plug under the case lip. Didn't use them with blanks very often, though.

 

[MartinPrince]

Even simpler safety rules - Doesn't matter what kind of scene you are doing, once that gun is in your hands you are responsible for anything that happens thereafter, so it's on YOU to make sure what you've just taken responsibility for is safe. Doesn't matter who else has done whatever checks, you still check it for yourself. Takes mere moments, job done, no-one dies.

The stuff you "experts" make up is incredible.

All the checks should have been done BEFORE the gun reached the actors hand. Show me where it is mandated in HIS/HER contract that they are responsible for checking whether a gun has blanks or live ammunition!

The reason you won't find it is because that is not in their job description, they are not required to have an expertise in that field, their job is to act .

If you say otherwise, you are making stuff up.

 

[dlockers]

The stuff you "experts" make up is incredible.

All the checks should have been done BEFORE the gun reached the actors hand. Show me where it is mandated in HIS/HER contract that they are responsible for checking whether a gun has blanks or live ammunition!

The reason you won't find it is because that is not their job description, they are not required to have an expertise in that,field, their job is to act .

If you say otherwise, you are making stuff up.

Dude you have to watch a video before you can lift a box at ASDA. You don't think he had guidance before being handed a potentially loaded gun?

 

[ttaskmaster]

The stuff you "experts" make up is incredible.

We're just basing our opinions on how it works in other situations where firearms are regularly (and successfully) handled.
It's not made up.

All the checks should have been done BEFORE the gun reached the actors hand. Show me where it is mandated in HIS/HER contract that they are responsible for checking whether a gun has blanks or live ammunition!

The reason you won't find it is because that is not their job description, they are not required to have an expertise in that,field, their job is to act .

If you say otherwise, you are making stuff up.

If something is blatantly unsafe, anyone on set should have the power to call it out, or verify it.
Something like firearm handling only requires a small amount of knowledge to be basically safe with. It takes a couple of hours' training, and few seconds to check - Is it not worth those few moments to avoid the possibility of killing someone, or being sent to prison?

"Their job is to act"... in a way that is safe.... Which requires a degree of realism, skill and experience in anything they do, be that cooking or driving a car or handling a gun.
But they also learn to do it safely. Even an "actor" has to learn how to throw a punch safely, or swing a sword safely, precisely to avoid hurting people for real.

If they can learn to load a magazine, rack the slide, shoulder the weapon and pull the trigger, they can learn to do a simple safety check. Anywhere else, you get that basic safety training. Acting should be no different, and I bet you'll see an increase in safety-focussed training for actors following this event.

 

[MartinPrince]

Dude you have to watch a video before you can lift a box at ASDA. You don't think he had guidance before being handed a potentially loaded gun?

Yet again the inanity of extrapolating from lifting a box at Asda to firing a gun on a film set!

The fact is you don't really have a clue what actually goes on and your surplanting your suppostions with the actual facts that happened on that film set or other film sets!

 

[MartinPrince]

We're just basing our opinions on how it works in other situations where firearms are regularly (and successfully) handled.
It's not made up.


If something is blatantly unsafe, anyone on set should have the power to call it out, or verify it.
Something like firearm handling only requires a small amount of knowledge to be basically safe with. It takes a couple of hours' training, and few seconds to check - Is it not worth those few moments to avoid the possibility of killing someone, or being sent to prison?

"Their job is to act"... in a way that is safe.... Which requires a degree of realism, skill and experience in anything they do, be that cooking or driving a car or handling a gun.
But they also learn to do it safely. Even an "actor" has to learn how to throw a punch safely, or swing a sword safely, precisely to avoid hurting people for real.

If they can learn to load a magazine, rack the slide, shoulder the weapon and pull the trigger, they can learn to do a simple safety check. Anywhere else, you get that basic safety training. Acting should be no different, and I bet you'll see an increase in safety-focussed training for actors following this event.

Once again, the simple fact is you don't have s clue what goes on a film set or that film set and you're using YOUR BEST GUESS as a foundation for your assertions, which is like building a house on quick sand!

 

[Werewolf]

I wonder are actors also required to inspect the brakes on the car they're asked to drive and make sure the tyres are inflated to the correct level for any minor driving stunt they're doing, with the correct tread depth and type of tyre?

An actor can be given basic safety training but they're also expected to basically ignore that for certain scenes on the understanding that the experts have worked out how it's to be done safely for them and others.
This goes for everything from fires to electrics, to guns, chemicals, breaking "glass", drinking "poisons", using vehicles, being pulled by equipment that can easily seriously injure you.

A huge amount of what goes on in the production of film and TV goes against "normal safety" measures specifically because it's needed for the production and the people doing it are doing so under heavy supervision and what are meant to be very controlled circumstances, it's one of the reasons there are stunt people and even then there are specialisations in the stunt field because no one person can be fully experienced in every aspect of what is needed on screen, and most "normal" actors only get enough training for the specific scene they're doing.
IIRC there used to be disclaimers on all sorts of shows the explicitly told people "Do not try this at home" often followed by something like "The experiments you see in this program have been carried out under expert supervision in a controlled environment".

Actors know what they're doing is sometimes dangerous, and place a massive amount of trust in those that hand them the props, hook them up to wire systems, set the explosives around them on the ground and maintain the mechanical electrical systems.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Once again, the simple fact is you don't have s clue what goes on a film set or that film set and you're using YOUR BEST GUESS as a foundation for your assertions, which is like building a house on quick sand!

I don't know what happens on every film set, but I've worked on almost three dozen productions, including those with firearms.
The simple fact is you don't appreciate how simple and effective it is to cover basic safety checks.

I wonder are actors also required to inspect the brakes on the car they're asked to drive and make sure the tyres are inflated to the correct level for any minor driving stunt they're doing, with the correct tread depth and type of tyre?

I wonder if actors have to be taught not to take a sharp sword out of the sheath and wave it around right next to other people.......?
^That's the level of safety we're talking about.

An actor can be given basic safety training but they're also expected to basically ignore that for certain scenes on the understanding that the experts have worked out how it's to be done safely for them and others.

OK, here's a gun. It's not loaded. When I say ACTION, point it right at someone over there and pull the trigger.
Do you trust your freedom, your career and your friends' lives to my mere word... or would you like me to take five seconds and show you it's not loaded?

A huge amount of what goes on in the production of film and TV goes against "normal safety" measures specifically because it's needed for the production and the people doing it are doing so under heavy supervision and what are meant to be very controlled circumstances, it's one of the reasons there are stunt people and even then there are specialisations in the stunt field because no one person can be fully experienced in every aspect of what is needed on screen, and most "normal" actors only get enough training for the specific scene they're doing.

Most normal actors still get taught how to avoid hurting their fellow crew with whatever they're doing, though. They get high speed driving courses, horse riding lessons and so on, so they can do all that without killing anyone, including themselves.
Like I said, if they know how to load and fire a gun, they should know how to check it and make it safe.

 

[MartinPrince]

I don't know what happens on every film set, but I've worked on almost three dozen productions, including those with firearms.
The simple fact is you don't appreciate how simple and effective it is to cover basic safety checks.

There you go conflating how simple a task is with what is required. The two are not the same.

I know an actor who worked on a movie which required him using a gun. No where in his contract was he required or expected to know the difference between live rounds and blanks in the gun he was operating; which is in effect exactly what you et al are saying is/should be the case.

So unless you can provide some actual evidence where actors are required to know the difference between a gun with blanks or live ammunition then I'll leave you to pontificate on it to your hearts content.