Amazon Healthcare

[opethian]

Our American brothers and sisters are currently suffering through one of the worst financially predatory healthcare systems in the modern world, where a good number of them are but a sickness away from bankruptcy.

One thing that Amazon has the potential to do here, and this is me with my positive-thinking cap on, is to shake the entire industry the same way it did for high street stores.

If Amazon can lower the prices, raise the quality of service, and pretty much create a brand new "standard", then that would be a good thing compared to what Americans have now which is a "Oh I'm sick, let me take a look at which clinics/hospitals my insurer tells me I can go to, oh it's 20 miles away, nice" system.

 

[dowie]

If they introduced some centres where you could get diagnostic tests and scans without a referral that would be great.

You can already do that, if you're insured you do generally need a GP referral to make a claim but they're waaay more willing to give private referrals right away as it costs the NHS nothing (at least initially, less so if they then discover something chronic or which can't be easily treated), if you're willing to pay then you don't even need that, you can go directly to a specialist and get your heart checked out with an ecg, echo etc.. out or go pay for some blood tests and check all sorts of things... some companies will sell comprehensive executive health check pacakges.

This isn't necessarily good for the NHS if everyone did it, inappropriate testing can lead to lots of false positives and then further time wasted on additional testing and consultations etc..

Why would British tax payers want to pay 3x what they do now per capita, for care that’s not only worse than they receive now, but that they also have to pay extra for privately on top of their taxes?

I think you're adding in rather a lot to some argument that the other poster didn't make! Also, you seem to have gone back a decade and cherry-picked a ranking constructed by a US organisation that mainly exists to lobby in the US. Though the NHS has slipped a bit even in more recent rankings from them.

If you look at outcomes we're not doing so well, the UK is generally near the bottom when it comes to actual results for various cancers, stroke etc.

List of countries by quality of healthcare - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are plenty of other first-world countries in Europe or Asia + Australia and New Zealand with single-payer public/private systems and good outcomes, it seems like the NHS is treated as a holy cow in the UK and whenever privatisation is brought up the go-to reaction is along the lines of but but 'merica... yet even the most hardcore Tory MPs don't appear to have any desire to go down that route of bloated administration, high insurance costs etc.

 

[opethian]

it seems like the NHS is treated as a holy cow in the UK and whenever privatisation is brought up the go-to reaction is along the lines of but but 'merica... yet even the most hardcore Tory MPs don't appear to have any desire to go down that route of bloated administration, high insurance costs etc.

Very fair points you mentioned. Alas, you can't blame people for making comparisons to America when the government are ready to sell the delivery of NHS to American healthcare companies. It's obviously a part of post-Brexit trade deals understandably, but the Conservative's track record when making deals is always about what they can get away with.

Also, the NHS is indeed a holy cow. We need to move away from the thought that an institution designed and built to protect the citizens of the country, is something easily sacrificed. A healthy populace can only be a benefit to the wellbeing of the country. I also understand that this is in direct contradiction to the UK majority of right-wing thinking where it's "survival of the fittest".

Not an easy situation. But going back to the Amazon topic, I for one would welcome competition in the UK in the form of Amazon, especially if we're talking about adding an option to UK citizens to get better healthcare.

 

[Combat squirrel]

As long as we all, in the UK, defend the NHS to our deaths, we should be ok - it's one of the few things everyone agrees on - any gov that try to turn us to US healthcare style will be rightly lynched.

What we do need to do is campaign to get proper investment put in to the NHS - this back handed underfunding is snake like and needs to stop, very sly behaviour from the gov.

 

[Sankari]

Every day we grow closer to the birth of OmniCorp.

 

[opethian]

Every day we grow closer to the birth of OmniCorp.

So true.

 

[Stu999]

Every day we grow closer to the birth of OmniCorp.

If we can buy an ED-209 online then it will be worth it.

 

[Dolph]

How the **** are Europe’s best healthcare systems rated worse than the U.K. and worse than the USA is some cases?

Because the study being quoted is nonsense most likely, which is why it's a random table rather than a properly referenced study.

I suspect it's the king's fund study that didn't control for care outcomes when it declared the UK the best healthcare system in the world by making out of pocket costs multiple times more impacting than the actual care outcomes on positions.

Edit, it's actually the commonwealth fund. Strangely the 2021 results are very very different.

Mirror, Mirror 2021: Reflecting Poorly

The United States trails far behind other high-income countries on measures of health care affordability, administrative efficiency, equity, and outcomes.

www.commonwealthfund.org

It still shares similar problems of not appropriately controlling for outcomes though.

Mirror, Mirror 2021: Reflecting Poorly

The United States trails far behind other high-income countries on measures of health care affordability, administrative efficiency, equity, and outcomes.

www.commonwealthfund.org

How the UK can be fourth overall but 9th for healthcare outcomes makes zero sense.

 

[arknor]

That’s one of the most insane things I’ve ever read.

Why would British tax payers want to pay 3x what they do now per capita, for care that’s not only worse than they receive now, but that they also have to pay extra for privately on top of their taxes?

how is Swiss care worse than the UK? in what dimension is this the twilight zone?

Next they will be telling us our Police force is better than the swiss one...
Swiss police will come to your house because your making too much noise... in the UK they won't even attend a burglary

 

[Surveyor]

Markets don't quite work like that when you've got a government funded infrastructure in place, and £100 GP appointments would really prove my point wouldn't it, GP's don't earn £600 per hour, only way you get that happening is when you heavily distort the market.

£100 gets you at least a 15 minute appointment and professional charging rates don't only cover the person's wage.

And no, actually my proposal was to start pumping gas into Lidl to kill off all the poor. I put up a petition on change.org but it got taken down sadly.

Careful, your true colours are showing.

 

[danoliver1]

Do they do penis enlargement? Asking for a friend.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Health outcomes are incredibly poor in the NHS, I don't think that's a shock to anyone. Why people worship at its alter I honestly have no idea, it's a bloated dinosaur in need of a serious overhaul and trim of the fat.

About 10 years ago I worked in a private hospital and the same surgical team that worked in the NHS local hospital in the day doing knee surgery's worked in the afternoon and evening at the private hospital doing private referal surgery's for the NHS. These surgery's actually cost the NHS less than doing them in house.

I can only imagine that gap is even larger now.

 

[Minstadave]

Because hip and knee replacements represent the entire market lol, talk about cherry picking. I have used the private system as well, however when you see cities with 6 figure populations with no private GP practices at all, only NHS ones with 6 week waiting times, you would have to be totally ignorant to say that the NHS model hasn't devastated the private market when compared to alternative universal healthcare systems.

Who'd have thought it? The provision of free health care makes it hard for more expensive alternatives to thrive. Bad NHS, bad! And the NHS provides all the emergency and intensive care for the existing private health care services when things go wrong. If only we could spend thousands of pounds a day for ITU care instead of getting it for free, the horror!

 

[Energize]

£100 gets you at least a 15 minute appointment and professional charging rates don't only cover the person's wage.

Yes of course, the NHS national tariff gives the wage a 69% weighting when setting prices for treatment. But it doesn't need to cost £100 to see a GP either, it doesn't in other countries and the NHS say the cost of a GP appointment to them is only £30. Many people would be willing to pay more than that to see a GP privately so that doesn't explain the absence of private GP practices across most of the country. It's easy to see how the presence of an NHS infrastructure results in a lack of readily available affordable private clinics for those willing to pay though.

Private Doctors Near Me | UK Private GP London Doctors Clinic

18 clinics and same-day private doctor London. Find private doctors near me & book a London private GP near me.

www.londondoctorsclinic.co.uk

Private GP appointments in London of all places for significantly less than £100, unfortunately outside of those few major cities services are sparse indeed.

Who'd have thought it? The provision of free health care makes it hard for more expensive alternatives to thrive. Bad NHS, bad! And the NHS provides all the emergency and intensive care for the existing private health care services when things go wrong. If only we could spend thousands of pounds a day for ITU care instead of getting it for free, the horror!

If only there wasn't a false dichotomy between the NHS and a USA style healthcare system, like Japan, France, Germany, oh wait...

 

[Minstadave]

If only there wasn't a false dichotomy between the NHS and a USA style healthcare system, like Japan, France, Germany, oh wait...

You've quoted me but it makes no sense in relation to my post. There is no dichotomy there.

 

[Surveyor]

Private Doctors Near Me | UK Private GP London Doctors Clinic

18 clinics and same-day private doctor London. Find private doctors near me & book a London private GP near me.

www.londondoctorsclinic.co.uk

Private GP appointments in London of all places for significantly less than £100, unfortunately outside of those few major cities services are sparse indeed.

15 minute appointments in central London £89, £79 elsewhere. My point stands that it's not an affordable option for many.

Yes of course, the NHS national tariff gives the wage a 69% weighting when setting prices for treatment. But it doesn't need to cost £100 to see a GP either, it doesn't in other countries and the NHS say the cost of a GP appointment to them is only £30. Many people would be willing to pay more than that to see a GP privately so that doesn't explain the absence of private GP practices across most of the country. It's easy to see how the presence of an NHS infrastructure results in a lack of readily available affordable private clinics for those willing to pay though.

The average cost of a 9 minute NHS GP appointment in 2020 was £39.23.

Key facts and figures about the NHS

What's the NHS annual budget? How many doctors and nurses are there? What's the cost of an operation? We answer some of the most frequently asked questions we receive about the NHS.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

Pro rata a 15 minute appointment would cost the NHS £65. A private GP is going to charge more than cost so prices really no different to where we are now.

If it's what you want the NHS could cut back on the number of GPs and the resulting lack of an NHS infrastructure should result in a burgeoning private sector. I think it's more likely to result in mass protest though.

 

[Energize]

15 minute appointments in central London £89, £79 elsewhere. My point stands that it's not an affordable option for many.



The average cost of a 9 minute NHS GP appointment in 2020 was £39.23.

Key facts and figures about the NHS

What's the NHS annual budget? How many doctors and nurses are there? What's the cost of an operation? We answer some of the most frequently asked questions we receive about the NHS.

www.kingsfund.org.uk

Pro rata a 15 minute appointment would cost the NHS £65. A private GP is going to charge more than cost so prices really no different to where we are now.

If it's what you want the NHS could cut back on the number of GPs and the resulting lack of an NHS infrastructure should result in a burgeoning private sector. I think it's more likely to result in mass protest though.

Yes it's not an affordable option for many, my point is that a) the cost need not be so high with a different model of universal healthcare, there are countries where for example the government contribute to the cost of a private appointment because it reduces the cost to the national healthcare system and b) we should be allowing for higher cost private services to thrive in addition to the universal healthcare because it increases patient choice and allows those with greater income to get better care, which I think is the morally right approach, rather than consign everyone to the NHS health outcomes.

The figures are one year older but I'll take the official NHS figures over Kingsfund.

NHS England » Missed GP appointments costing NHS millions

Patients urged to cancel appointments rather than just not show up. More than 15 million general practice appointments are being wasted each year because patients do not turn up and fail to warn surgeries that they will not be attending. There are around 307 million sessions scheduled with GPs...

www.england.nhs.uk

Each appointment costs an average of £30

Bear in mind however these "GP appointments" referred to in both your and my own source include appointments with nurses etc, so you can't compare them to a private appointment with an actual doctor, the average inc nurses etc would be much lower obviously.

 

[G J]

Giving what I've heard about the slave labour conditions in their fulfillment centres I dont see what good that can come from this but I guess all their employes will now be forced to use Amazon Healthcare so they can now go even harder in covering up/turning a blind eye to all the health/safety/legal violations that happen if the employee doesnt get fired beforehand.

 

[Surveyor]

Yes it's not an affordable option for many, my point is that a) the cost need not be so high with a different model of universal healthcare, there are countries where for example the government contribute to the cost of a private appointment because it reduces the cost to the national healthcare system and b) we should be allowing for higher cost private services to thrive in addition to the universal healthcare because it increases patient choice and allows those with greater income to get better care, which I think is the morally right approach, rather than consign everyone to the NHS health outcomes.

The figures are one year older but I'll take the official NHS figures over Kingsfund.

NHS England » Missed GP appointments costing NHS millions

Patients urged to cancel appointments rather than just not show up. More than 15 million general practice appointments are being wasted each year because patients do not turn up and fail to warn surgeries that they will not be attending. There are around 307 million sessions scheduled with GPs...

www.england.nhs.uk

Bear in mind however these "GP appointments" referred to in both your and my own source include appointments with nurses etc, so you can't compare them to a private appointment with an actual doctor, the average inc nurses etc would be much lower obviously.

The figure I quoted relates only to GPs and, as you say, your figure covers appointments with nurses etc.

Which cities with six figure populations have no private GP availability?

 

[arknor]

MHS GP appointments are a joke though.. my surgery changed to only letting people book appointments for the following 2 days.... and then they try to fob you off with a phone call from some GP skiving at home....

I was at my GP the other month and the doctor told me to book an appointment for 5 days time... the argument I had with the receptionist before she would let me do it was a joke.....

the GP literally told me to come back on a specific date for test results and she was trying to not let me because "rules" and expecting me to try and joint he lottery in 3 days time

NHS is pretty much a second rate service for people who don't want to go private or can't afford to