AMD & nVidia at it again over Batman

Bergkamp · 5 Nov 2009 at 02:34

wiak said:
why cant they just make love not war

much like ati did with intel over crossfire, heck when amd bought ati, they are still allowing crossfire on intel chipsets

the thing with batman as in understand it is that nvidia coded AA, and put a Device ID detecter that only allows NVIDIA cards to use the code and gave it to Eidos as IP, so Eidos cant edit it, so basicly locking ATI out

how the heck is that fair?, its like if Intel codes DXVA Blu-Ray Decoding in Windows 7 to run great on their Crapstics also known as Intel GMA graphics and disable completey for AMD/NVIDIA IGPs

the same thing can be applied here

Exactly! If everybody in the technology industry took the nvidia attitude, the whole thing would be brought to its knees in weeks.

Rroff · 5 Nov 2009 at 02:38

Bergkamp said:
If other agreements were made that's a different matter?

So if ATI cards aren't accepted then they have no right to moan cos nvidia did their own development? But at the same time if any other agreement was made that automatically rejects ant attempt to implement an ATI solution, that's a different matter.

God, I wish ATI weren't so lazy.... At getting their wallet out to bribe developers.

BTW, you're the one blinded by corporate spin Rroff.

Oh I love the irony... if theres one person whos probably not blinded by the corporate spin in this thread it would be myself...

If there is an agreement between nvidia and eidos that stipulates they can't implement an AA path for other vendors... then that is bang out of order, counter productive for everyone (except nvidia) and an entirely different matter to the nvidia supplied AA path that is getting a lot of mis-directed anger by people with no understanding of the mechanics of video game development.

Trust me I'm not blind to the back room dealing and wheeling that can go on here nor to the merits (and otherwise) of nvidia and ATI when it comes to supporting game developers... I'm no big hotshot video game developer - but I have been involved at one level or another in around 20 titles over the last ~7 years ranging from AAA to budget commercial modifications, from companies like idsoftware and activision, to small european studios - doing programming, level design or playtesting (inhouse or private - not public beta testing which I've done plenty of too).

kylew · 5 Nov 2009 at 03:07

Rroff said:
Oh I love the irony... if theres one person whos probably not blinded by the corporate spin in this thread it would be myself...

If there is an agreement between nvidia and eidos that stipulates they can't implement an AA path for other vendors... then that is bang out of order, counter productive for everyone (except nvidia) and an entirely different matter to the nvidia supplied AA path that is getting a lot of mis-directed anger by people with no understanding of the mechanics of video game development.

Trust me I'm not blind to the back room dealing and wheeling that can go on here nor to the merits (and otherwise) of nvidia and ATI when it comes to supporting game developers... I'm no big hotshot video game developer - but I have been involved at one level or another in around 20 titles over the last ~7 years ranging from AAA to budget commercial modifications, from companies like idsoftware and activision, to small european studios - doing programming, level design or playtesting (inhouse or private - not public beta testing which I've done plenty of too).

You not supposedly, the least likely to be blinded by corporate spin is ironic in what way?

People don't have to understand the mechanics of games development to understand that it's wrong.

Cause and effect is all the "layperson" is interested in.

What's happening, and what's the basic most direct reason as to why?

Which would be "ATi users are being denied usage of AA in Batman AA due to TWIMTBP programme."

Anything else is irrelevant really, it's obviously that nVidia act like this anyway, there's no reason to wonder why people jump on the nVidia hate bandwagon when there's plenty of stuff to support the claims people are making against nVidia.

Rroff · 5 Nov 2009 at 03:19

kylew said:
Which would be "ATi users are being denied usage of AA in Batman AA due to TWIMTBP programme."

So get upset with that (not directed at you personally) rather than doing the equivalent of moaning about AMD because 3DNow doesn't work on your intel CPU.

kylew · 5 Nov 2009 at 03:38

Rroff said:
So get upset with that (not directed at you personally) rather than doing the equivalent of moaning about AMD because 3DNow doesn't work on your intel CPU.

But if the root of it appears to be nVidia's fault, why is it bad to also moan about them too?

The fact that there's evidence that nVidia did infact lock ATi out on purpose, and the fact that Eidos and nVidia are blaming each other is enough to show what really happened.

D.P. · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:01

Andric said:
locking out standard hardware as its a competitor is bad. nVidia could easily have specific paths for their stuff and highly optimised and a generuic path for all hardware. not doing so and then not allowing editing of the branching to add other code paths which seems to be the issue here is anticompetitive, as tother venders cannot have a seperate path to optimised code without beign able to make a branch in code at the point nvidia departs from standard implemntation.

There is no evidence that this is the case though.

AFAIK, Nvidia has not locked out other competiors but have provioded code for their own AA implementation which they rightly (maybe the Nvidia code will crash on ATI hardware for example) only allow Nvidia cards to us.

D.P. · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:03

TAC4U said:
Obviously it's easier for a developer to not have to... you know... develop stuff but that's their job. To accept a method from nVidia that locks out ATi is disgusting. .

Not its not, what if the Nvidia method doesn't work on ATI hardwareware?

D.P. · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:09

Bergkamp said:
According to a lot of reports and general consensus, it actually does lock ATI out from doing it themselves. What's the point when the developer obviously can't accept any other solution than the nvidia one stipulated in whatever nasty little contract they signed?

I genuinely hope the tables are turned some day soon so people like you can choke on your fanboy words!

It does not lock out ATI.

the code would look like this:

Code:

If ( NVIDIA_CARD_FOUND ) {
   DoNvidiaAACodePath();
}
else
{
   DoGenericCodePath();  // This Path has no AA yet
}

That is not blocking ATI.

londonbairn · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:35

Nvidia could make well of a few people in this thread to do their PR

kylew · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:40

D.P. said:
Not its not, what if the Nvidia method doesn't work on ATI hardwareware?

But it does work if you circumvent the device ID detection... :confused:

kylew · 5 Nov 2009 at 08:41

rafster said:
Nvidia could make well of a few people in this thread to do their PR

I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't already the case, the way some people act over nVidia is ridiculous.

BubbySoup · 5 Nov 2009 at 10:25

D.P. said:
It does not lock out ATI.

the code would look like this:

Code:

If ( NVIDIA_CARD_FOUND ) { DoNvidiaAACodePath(); } else { DoGenericCodePath(); // This Path has no AA yet }

That is not blocking ATI.

And yet AMD claim they submitted an AA solution which the developers chose to ignore because of TWIMTBP programme.

Why are people choosing to ignore this or claiming it's not a fact when it came from a senior AMD spokesperson?

I guess it fits better with their argument.

londonbairn · 5 Nov 2009 at 11:30

BubbySoup said:
And yet AMD claim they submitted an AA solution which the developers chose to ignore because of TWIMTBP programme.

Why are people choosing to ignore this or claiming it's not a fact when it came from a senior AMD spokesperson?

I guess it fits better with their argument.

Because a certain few people here spin as much as they can to defend NV as much as possible, including someone who makes amazing claims with no substance or evidence

NickK · 5 Nov 2009 at 11:49

D.P. said:
That is not blocking ATI.

However legally prohibiting the game developer to allow AMD to create their own version is a bit dumb for the developer!

There's nothing wrong with detecting a specific vendor and executing an optimised code path for that specific vendor. The problem comes when there's a legal restrictions that could be illegal.

It sounds like AMD's fingering of nVidia's activities as "dirty tricks" has worked. It's something that AMD can't let nVidia set a precedence.

Andric · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:09

D.P. said:
It does not lock out ATI.

the code would look like this:

Code:

If ( NVIDIA_CARD_FOUND ) { DoNvidiaAACodePath(); } else { DoGenericCodePath(); // This Path has no AA yet }

That is not blocking ATI.

I does if as the developer claimed if nvidia put that code in and will not allow changes. If there is a term in the contract stating that a) nVidia owns copywrite on the code and b) the code must be used as is and un modified then changing that code woudl be a breach, thereby preventing any other manufacturer to add in a branch. From the initial report thats what is claimed to be the case.

markiejt · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:21

just wondering Can any of you get on to sony and ask them to make GT5 Work on my xbox 360 and wii please?

I know they have spent loads of money on it etc but dont feel its fair that they are stopping over half the people with consoles from playing it?

Sound the same argument tbh to me?

Andric · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:24

markiejt said:
just wondering Can any of you get on to sony and ask them to make GT5 Work on my xbox 360 and wii please?

I know they have spent loads of money on it etc but dont feel its fair that they are stopping over half the people with consoles from playing it?

Sound the same argument tbh to me?

nope - its would be more like the game would only work on your xbox if you used a sony tv else your SOL

AMG · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:35

meh you play the game and park it up and forget about it anyway.

kylew · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:47

markiejt said:
just wondering Can any of you get on to sony and ask them to make GT5 Work on my xbox 360 and wii please?

I know they have spent loads of money on it etc but dont feel its fair that they are stopping over half the people with consoles from playing it?

Sound the same argument tbh to me?

LOL

Trolling right?

markiejt · 5 Nov 2009 at 12:52

kylew said:
LOL

Trolling right?

pot/kettle/black comes to mind lol.

No im not trolling I just feel this is same argument? If nvidia give money to developers surely they will get benefits?

I'm not saying that is right but it is life... Maybe if ATI used some of its money to booster games they would get some of these extras?