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AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

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Dave2150 said:
AMD are extremely generous when it comes to socket longevity, so I disagree. AM5 will very likely support at least 3 generations, more like 5. AMD listened to their fanbase regarding Zen3 and the older AM4 boards after all ;)

You got it wrong about EOL CPU's. Intel best in socket CPU's hold their value well (4770k, 4790k, 6700k, 7700k prices are insane, even second hand!). AMD CPU's do not hold their value well at all.

What was the fastest AM3+ CPU? FX8350? FX9590? They are going for £30 or less..
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They were rubbish though. And AM3+ was ages ago now. the Zen 3s will be the last AM4 CPUs and look to be great, so they should keep their value like the intel ones don't you think.

Listen i agree with what you've said about AM5 being great value, but 2022 is a long way off, and i was just trying to point out things aren't quite as clear cut as you make out.
 
Dave2150 said:
Yeap, AM4 is a dead platform as soon as Ryzen 4000 CPU's launch. Just as Intel's LGA 1200 Z490 platform will be dead as soon as 11th Gen Rocket Lake launches.

Now is an absolutely terrible time to buy a new platform (IMO) as both next gen platforms (Socket AM5 from AMD, LGA1700 from Intel) will launch within a year and will be huge advancements in terms of IO and features. We're talking DDR5, USB4, and likely PCI-E V5, meaning it will be incredibly futureproof. AM5 especially is likely to last 3-4 new CPU generations from AMD alone, and will likely be incredible value.
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Yep.

Even though I don't need to upgrade at the moment, I will probably cave and buy an AMD5 system when it arrives, will be looking to get a 12 core CPU and 32GB Ram.
 
BS Dave said:
They were rubbish though. And AM3+ was ages ago now. the Zen 3s will be the last AM4 CPUs and look to be great, so they should keep their value like the intel ones don't you think.

Listen i agree with what you've said about AM5 being great value, but 2022 is a long way off, and i was just trying to point out things aren't quite as clear cut as you make out.
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Haswell (4770k), Skylake (6700k) and Kabylake (7700K) were all released while AM3+ Bulldozer 8350's and 9590's were around. These Intel parts have held their value far better than the AMD parts.

Yes, AM3+ CPU's performed badly. Lets take Ryzen then. A Ryzen 1600 (first gen Ryzen) haven't held their value at all. They can be bought for £40 on the bay. Ryzen wasn't rubbish - it's just that AMD parts simply don't hold their value anywhere near as well as Intel/Nvidia parts.
 
Dave2150 said:
Haswell (4770k), Skylake (6700k) and Kabylake (7700K) were all released while AM3+ Bulldozer 8350's and 9590's were around. These Intel parts have held their value far better than the AMD parts.

Yes, AM3+ CPU's performed badly. Lets take Ryzen then. A Ryzen 1600 (first gen Ryzen) haven't held their value at all. They can be bought for £40 on the bay. Ryzen wasn't rubbish - it's just that AMD parts simply don't hold their value anywhere near as well as Intel/Nvidia parts.
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...the 1600 is not the top cpu in the AM4 socket though is it? i hear what you're saying about AMD parts but i think the 3900x, 3950x, 4800x, 4900x and 4950x will all hold their value better, they are better parts and there are more Ryzen users. We're on the edge of the greatest recession in 100 years, not everyone is going to have the money to splash on a brand new set-up, so people will try to make do with what they've got or go for cheap upgrades. we'll have to wait and see who's right i guess.
 
BS Dave said:
...the 1600 is not the top cpu in the AM4 socket though is it? i hear what you're saying about AMD parts but i think the 3900x, 3950x, 4800x, 4900x and 4950x will all hold their value better, they are better parts and there are more Ryzen users. We're on the edge of the greatest recession in 100 years, not everyone is going to have the money to splash on a brand new set-up, so people will try to make do with what they've got or go for cheap upgrades. we'll have to wait and see who's right i guess.
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All the AMD CPU's I can see, going back in time, have not kept their value at all. Not sure why you think the top end AM4 ones will?

The reason Intel parts keep much of their value, isn't due to their performance. It's due to the brand name, and mind share. Consumers and businesses all know Intel, i5, i7, the brand is worth billions. It's the same with NVIDIA - their cards of the same performance as AMD always sell more second hand.

If we look at the top original Ryzen CPU, the 1700 - that's going for £90 or less. The 1800X goes for £99 (check sold auctions). That's less than a quad core Haswell 4770k sells for, and is nothing to do with performance.

Top end AM4 CPU's will suffer the same fate, Intel parts will always sell for more, as more people want them.
 
Dave2150 said:
All the AMD CPU's I can see, going back in time, have not kept their value at all. Not sure why you think the top end AM4 ones will?

The reason Intel parts keep much of their value, isn't due to their performance. It's due to the brand name, and mind share. Consumers and businesses all know Intel, i5, i7, the brand is worth billions. It's the same with NVIDIA - their cards of the same performance as AMD always sell more second hand.

If we look at the top original Ryzen CPU, the 1700 - that's going for £90 or less. The 1800X goes for £99 (check sold auctions). That's less than a quad core Haswell 4770k sells for, and is nothing to do with performance.

Top end AM4 CPU's will suffer the same fate, Intel parts will always sell for more, as more people want them.
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There is a reason they don't keep their value and it is quite simple. Progress! They get fairly well spanked by the next gen introduced at the same or a cheaper price on the same damn socket. This is why intel stuff holds its value as the socket cannot be used with the next Gen. Honestly it really is that simple. AMD kill the second hand value in their own chips in the name of progress.

Intel stuff holding its value is nothing to do with the name, brand or anything. It's because they don't release more than a single gen on the same socket.
 
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AMD seems quite happy to lower the prices of there cpus close to the launch of a new series so some of the reason why AMD chips are so cheep second hand may also be down to that.

But yeah i could flog on my 5820k for quite a bit even though its nowhere near close to what i will be replacing it with.
 
Vince said:
There is a reason they don't keep their value and it is quite simple. Progress! They get fairly well spanked by the next gen introduced at the same or a cheaper price on the same damn socket. This is why intel stuff holds its value as the socket cannot be used with the next Gen. Honestly it really is that simple. AMD kill the second hand value in their own chips in the name of progress.

Intel stuff holding its value is nothing to do with the name, brand or anything. It's because they don't release more than a single gen on the same socket.
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You are incorrect. Most Intel motherboards support 2 generations:

Z170 - worked with 6th and 7th gen (6700k, 7700k)
Z390 - works with 8th gen and 9th gen (8700k, 9900k)
Z490 - works with 10th and 11th gen (Comet lake, Rocket lake)
 
RavenXXX2 said:
Are people so afraid to change their mobo they are willing to pay £300 for a used 7700K on eBay, a 3300X is as fast and is £120. Mind boggling.
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It's mind boggling that they command the prices they do on the second hand market. Though, you can't argue with how popular/desirable they are. IMO it's still mainly due to the brand power. Heck, look at all the iphones and Macs that get sold - they're extremely popular, even when equal spec alternatives are less than half the price.
 
Dave2150 said:
You are incorrect. Most Intel motherboards support 2 generations:

Z170 - worked with 6th and 7th gen (6700k, 7700k)
Z390 - works with 8th gen and 9th gen (8700k, 9900k)
Z490 - works with 10th and 11th gen (Comet lake, Rocket lake)
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At this point it's barely worth the distinction but I take your point. Given that everything on that list is skylake you wonder if you could get more out of a platform than just a single tick tock? :)

Besides the premise behind the rest holds up.
 
Vince said:
At this point it's barely worth the distinction but I take your point. Given that everything on that list is skylake you wonder if you could get more out of a platform than just a single tick tock? :)
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Haha. Got to hand it to Intel though, a 5.5 year old architecture is still top of gaming performance. Looking forward to seeing Rocket's lake's rumoured 20-25% IPC gain, give that's it's been back ported from 10nm to 14nm, it should clock high. Power draw will be high, though performance is still king for many.
 
Dave2150 said:
Haha. Got to hand it to Intel though, a 5.5 year old architecture is still top of gaming performance. Looking forward to seeing Rocket's lake's rumoured 20-25% IPC gain, give that's it's been back ported from 10nm to 14nm, it should clock high. Power draw will be high, though performance is still king for many.
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I think you would be lucky to get 10% IPC.

I take it the many means people who play at 1080p with an RTX2080ti?
 
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Dave2150 said:
Haha. Got to hand it to Intel though, a 5.5 year old architecture is still top of gaming performance. Looking forward to seeing Rocket's lake's rumoured 20-25% IPC gain, give that's it's been back ported from 10nm to 14nm, it should clock high. Power draw will be high, though performance is still king for many.
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20-25% IPC improvement from Intel is just wishful thinking, if they could they’d have done it in the last 5.5 years.
 
Dave2150 said:
Haha. Got to hand it to Intel though, a 5.5 year old architecture is still top of gaming performance. Looking forward to seeing Rocket's lake's rumoured 20-25% IPC gain, give that's it's been back ported from 10nm to 14nm, it should clock high. Power draw will be high, though performance is still king for many.
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Gaming performance doesn't mean much to me sadly, but for the people that love that single core/every frame at 720p/1080p then Intel have taken skylake to within an inch of its life which in itself is quite impressive. I mean I like a game as much as the next man and play quite a few, even competitive shooters but I don't go chasing frames any more. I did when I was a lot younger but these days the ability to import and run a massive VM estate or be able to play a game while the machine is busy with all kinds of other stuff is far more useful to me. That though is why my gaming rig / workstation is a threadripper with a radeon 7.

If rocket lake gets even 15% i'll eat my hat. They will have to compromise it so heavily on the backport it will end up being 5% to 10% better while consuming all of the power in the world to do it. What they really need is some sort of architecture that can actually compete long term and nothing in their stack suggests that they have this, worst of all they still haven't got the interconnect to do it properly. Its sad but this is just the reality of it. From a gaming perspective they still have something but anywhere else it's a massively difficult sell.
 
Vince said:
At this point it's barely worth the distinction but I take your point. Given that everything on that list is skylake you wonder if you could get more out of a platform than just a single tick tock? :)

Besides the premise behind the rest holds up.
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The missed out mentioning the suckers who bought Z270, and Z370 though. :D

I was working out the number of designs/build I done this year as a ratio of AMD:Intel, and it is the first year that AMD have been higher than Intel, not just a bit higher, but much higher, 72%, that is systems from SoC/embedded designs, to low power U series, desktop Ryzen/Pro, Threadripper and EPYC as well.

I don't think any of them gave a flying banana about gaming performance crown at 720P/1080P, they were interested the power envelope, number of cores, the PCI-E lanes, not to mention the TCO which decimates Intel at the high end.

I feel bad for the folk on here who only know games, and think that that is the be-all and end-all of CPU's so blinkered and closed of to the real world where games don't matter a jot, and may as well be an after thought. Let's face it Intel are paying the price for sitting on their hands, and they really need to pull something out of the bag soon, before the Xeon (and -W) get absolutely wiped off the map in new systems.

... waiting patiently for my 4650G Pro to arrive, that will be a gaming BEAST! :D
 
Dave2150 said:
You are incorrect. Most Intel motherboards support 2 generations:

Z170 - worked with 6th and 7th gen (6700k, 7700k)
Z390 - works with 8th gen and 9th gen (8700k, 9900k)
Z490 - works with 10th and 11th gen (Comet lake, Rocket lake)
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Muddying the waters somewhat.
They launch z370 first didn't they, and for the 'next gen' rebranded as z390 to allow support. Was this not the case?
 
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