Soldato
Sept-Oct the earliest.
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AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.
- Thread starter AStaley
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Sept-Oct the earliest.
Soldato
@Augustus The X570 boards were crazy money because of the massive cost of PCIe 4 retimers to get signals across the entire board. They were simply very expensive to make. Note though that there are a good number of wel-priced X570 boards, not all of them are north of stupid money. However, TRX40 has a major overhaul of the PCIe 4 implementation that doesn't require so many retimers and whatnot, so the money spent on the board has gone back into what makes a Threadripper board a Threadripper board. That's why there is price parity: X570 is just stupidly expensive to make, TRX40 isn't stupidly expensive to make and there's a boat load more kit on it.
It has nothing to do with bumping the class of the chipsets up.
This is also why B550 boards are going to be more or less the same price as their B450 predecessors since they're likely to use the refined PCIe 4 implementation and don't need PCIe 4 signal integrity across the entire board.
To that end, I expect X670 to bring the prices back down a bit. Well, Asus won't because I've seen far too many builds with the £600 Crosshair Formula, so clearly idiots are buying it.
As an aside, it really does look like X570 was a total bodge job. Asmedia couldn't get the chipset done in time so AMD repurposed the Zen 2 I/O, board partners dropping PCIe retimers by the handfuls everywhere just to keep signal integrity. Messy.
It has nothing to do with bumping the class of the chipsets up.
This is also why B550 boards are going to be more or less the same price as their B450 predecessors since they're likely to use the refined PCIe 4 implementation and don't need PCIe 4 signal integrity across the entire board.
To that end, I expect X670 to bring the prices back down a bit. Well, Asus won't because I've seen far too many builds with the £600 Crosshair Formula, so clearly idiots are buying it.
As an aside, it really does look like X570 was a total bodge job. Asmedia couldn't get the chipset done in time so AMD repurposed the Zen 2 I/O, board partners dropping PCIe retimers by the handfuls everywhere just to keep signal integrity. Messy.
Caporegime
Schenker said October to early 2021 period,but as a system integrator they had not got any validation samples yet.
got a feeling we wont be able to actually buy these till nearer xmas/newyear?!
So are you saying that X570 won't perform as well with the retimers or is it just a cost thing? I'm more interested from a practical viewpoint rather than a design viewpoint. My knowledge of electronics is limited so I've no idea of the implications of the differing designs.
Associate
So they say. Unless you have first-hand knowledge of the situation you are repeating, as fact, whatever PR we are being told.
If you know this factually from first-hand knowledge of the situation please elaborate and elighten the rest of us. If you don't then please don't present PR as fact.
We will see. Other prospective buyers are already disappointed at the prices B550 are coming in at. Where there is a gaping hole upwards in the price structure expect it to be filled at the buyers expense.
Again, we will see. This is why i referenced nVidia who have been doing this with GPU for a few generations now. Unfortunately the 'idiots' force the rest of us into an impossible situation. This will happen for every buying opportunity that remains if we let it. At some point there will be no value left to be found. The prices will only come down when enough consumers demonstrate they won't stand for it.
I have seen corporates put prices of goods up to compensate for lack of buyers so don't bet on them getting the message. Once prices become high they generally stay high.
That's not an aside. It's a very relevant part of this whole mess. I mentioned this was 'amateur hour' and it is the amateurish execution that has led to the decisions currently being made to try to recover commercially, at the buyers expense, from poor strategic and technical decisions within AMD.
Within corporates, the ego determines it is never wrong and so more and more elaborate schemes are devised to cater for the initial decision which can never be seen to be wrong and back-tracked on.
Again, unless you have first hand knowledge of the situation please don't present this as fact.
Associate
PCIe has gotten itself into a bit of a mess as a standard. PCI-Sig keep publishing targets they don't know how to implement. I assume it's because they are in a bit of a 'connectivity arms race' (with USB, HDMI, displayport etc).
My default position is giving them the benefit of the doubt before i have enough examples of incompetence to apply that instead. They seem to be working hard fulfilling the incompetence angle though. Probably as a result of the committee-led culture.
I'd wager making PCIe4 work across devices has been a bit more difficult than the theory suggested it would be. My hunch is that AMD tried to recover the situation by repurposing their I/O die (which was a smart engineering move) but when all things were considered the cost of implementation didn't justify the result. If Navi hadn't been broken out of the box it might just have worked but it seems this time they just needed too many complicated things to come together perfectly and they didn't.
I can't fault AMD for trying these things but i draw the line at having to pay for it when it brings no value.
AMD have then doubled-down by not enabling me to buy the products they have produced well in a cost-effective manner.
*Edit, 'the situation' referred to above is the strategy/marketing decision to be first out of the gate with PCIe4. AMD likes their 'firsts'.
My default position is giving them the benefit of the doubt before i have enough examples of incompetence to apply that instead. They seem to be working hard fulfilling the incompetence angle though. Probably as a result of the committee-led culture.
I'd wager making PCIe4 work across devices has been a bit more difficult than the theory suggested it would be. My hunch is that AMD tried to recover the situation by repurposing their I/O die (which was a smart engineering move) but when all things were considered the cost of implementation didn't justify the result. If Navi hadn't been broken out of the box it might just have worked but it seems this time they just needed too many complicated things to come together perfectly and they didn't.
I can't fault AMD for trying these things but i draw the line at having to pay for it when it brings no value.
AMD have then doubled-down by not enabling me to buy the products they have produced well in a cost-effective manner.
*Edit, 'the situation' referred to above is the strategy/marketing decision to be first out of the gate with PCIe4. AMD likes their 'firsts'.
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Soldato
It's common knowledge that Asmedia were delayed in producing PCIe 4 chipsets so AMD did it themselves by repurposing the I/O design and backporting it to 14nm.
As for the retimers, it was discussed by a few techtubers, specifically Moore's Law Is Dead, before the TRX40 boards were announced. Now I may not have the exact design schematics in may hands, but I think it's pretty obvious that this proved to be true by virtue of the Gigabyte Aorus TRX40 Extreme costs a mere £100 more than the Aorus X570 Xtreme, with the others TRX40 boards costing the same as their X570 namesakes.
None of this is PR. I've seen seen marketing or PR saying anything of the sort.
As for the retimers, it was discussed by a few techtubers, specifically Moore's Law Is Dead, before the TRX40 boards were announced. Now I may not have the exact design schematics in may hands, but I think it's pretty obvious that this proved to be true by virtue of the Gigabyte Aorus TRX40 Extreme costs a mere £100 more than the Aorus X570 Xtreme, with the others TRX40 boards costing the same as their X570 namesakes.
None of this is PR. I've seen seen marketing or PR saying anything of the sort.
Soldato
And until B550 prices are officially announced, please don't present as fact. I've not seen any rumours or leaks that suggest B550 is going to be much different than B450.
Soldato
From what I understand the retimers are used to maintain signal integrity across the entire length of the board, even with chunky PCBs and all the traces. Without them, the PCIe 4 signal drops off at about 7 inches, which incidentally is enough though to drive an M.2 SSD and the top PCIe slot on 300 and 400 series motherboards, adding to the annoyance why PCIe 4 support was pulled.
The re-engineering done with TRX40 is somehow more refined and efficient so there's not as many retimers required. Whether B550 requires a retimer or not to feed the 2nd GPU slot remains to be seen, but even if it does it's certainly nowhere near as many as the X570 boards.
Caporegime
Ryzen 4000 Desktop APU's spotted, these are Zen 2 but like the 3300X should be single CCX.
Top end SKU is the 4800GE, 8 cores 16 threads boost 4.35Ghz, iGPU 8 CU's at 2Ghz.
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...ked-8-cpu-cores-and-igpu-on-par-with-the-ps4/
Top end SKU is the 4800GE, 8 cores 16 threads boost 4.35Ghz, iGPU 8 CU's at 2Ghz.
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/amd-r...ked-8-cpu-cores-and-igpu-on-par-with-the-ps4/
Associate
Go look in the motherboard section. Posters have stated they are disappointed in not only the indicative prices from the MSI rep for a given motherboard but then also the subsequent price displayed in the media. The price in the media is higher than the MSI rep suggested. Whodathunkit?
The reason the posters are disappointed is that the prices are higher than B450. Since these posters are writing their OWN OPINION on the matter i'll use that to present to you as a fact. This is how facts are used.
Until i've got a list of boards and their prices i will, and have, refrain from stating that B550 prices are higher than B450. I am free to speculate on that point as much as i like though and i'll use as much surrounding info as i can to form a hypothesis.
You not being aware of something doesn't mean it hasn't, or isn't, happening.
Caporegime
You can get X570 boards for £150, the B450 Tomahawk MAX is £110 the B550 Tomahawk can't be much more expensive than that or you would just get an X570.
Soldato
Caporegime
Renoir CPUs are dual CCX like the Ryzen 7 3700X is a single chiplet,dual CCX CPU. The Ryzen 3 3300X is the only Zen2 based CPU with a single CCX.
Renoir also lacks PCI-E 4.0 and has less L3 cache,however as it is not a chiplet,memory-CCX should be improved over Zen2 CPUs. I also suspect the consoles use a CPU derived from Renoir.
Renoir also lacks PCI-E 4.0 and has less L3 cache,however as it is not a chiplet,memory-CCX should be improved over Zen2 CPUs. I also suspect the consoles use a CPU derived from Renoir.
Associate
Is it common knowledge? Or is it just PR presented to the press and then discussed and presented and discussed and presented and discussed?
Not one of the tech tubers were in the AMD design strategy meetings so all they had is what somebody else told them. And that's all we have too.
We've just had GN Steve on reddit telling everyone they haven't got time to read all the info they are given and sometimes they miss stuff that turns out to be important and please don't beat them up on it.
None of us should be hanging on the tech press' every word and believing it's the entire truth.
I don't share your confidence in the reasoning behind the pricing being obvious.
There you go again. You not being aware of it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Caporegime
If they have a single CCX, i strongly suspect they will, these are going to be better than the 3800X in gaming.
These people have no shame, on both the core count and architectural latency they are saying exactly the opposite of what's true. The 3300X doesn't have that Intercore Latency and is proven to be: 'as far as we know so far' up to 14% faster core for core clock for clock than all other Ryzen CPU's, it has 15% higher IPC than a comparable 7700K.
Edit: Ah.... shame.
Associate
Renoir looks good. Been looking forward to it for a while.
Yeah it's monolithic so less to talk about on how it's constructed.
Yeah it's monolithic so less to talk about on how it's constructed.
I have friends/family who are relucant to fork out £800-£1000 on a gaming rig.. but if they could grab one of these new APUs and then in 6/12 months pop in a GPU without getting the bottlenecking you might see on the current 4c/4t APUs.. well thats amazing.
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