*** AMD "Zen 4" thread (inc AM5/APU discussion) ***

[humbug]

The 13900K is nothing like "popular"

I'll keep it simple. For the games I play, with the applications I need to also keep running in the background, an 8 core CPU is not sufficient. I think there's a large market for >8 core 3D cache CPU's, these would be very profitable for AMD due to increased margin on high end/flagship CPU's.

What games do you play where 8 cores aren't sufficient for the game and Discord, Youtube...

I can't imagine anything worse than Star Citizen and my 8 cores handles that perfectly well.

 

[Dave2150]

The 13900K is nothing like "popular"



What games do you play where 8 cores aren't sufficient for the game and Discord, Youtube...

I can't imagine anything worse than Star Citizen and my 8 cores handles that perfectly well.

Not the thread to discuss my personal gaming habits, yet alone the 13900k.

Keep it on topic with Zen4/3d cache related updates

 

[humbug]

Not the thread to discuss my personal gaming habits, yet alone the 13900k.

Keep it on topic with Zen4/3d cache related updates

You brought it up....

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Ryzen 5500, 6 Zen 3 cores and 12 threads, £100. https://www.overclockers.co.uk/amd-...hz-socket-am4-processor-retail-cp-3d3-am.html

MSI RX 6650XT Gaming X, £300. https://www.overclockers.co.uk/msi-...ddr6-pci-express-graphics-card-gx-38s-ms.html

Asus TUF Gaming AM4 Motherboard, £80 https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asus...cket-am4-ddr4-matx-motherboard-mb-6fe-as.html

Corsair LPX 3600Mhz Ryzen tuned DDR4 2X 8GB (16GB) £60 https://www.overclockers.co.uk/cors...ry-dual-kit-cmk16gx4m2z3600c18-my-4bw-cs.html

Total £540 for a 1440P 60+ or high refresh-rate 1080P gaming rig.

An Intel "save the day" GPU is £450 and slower, things aren't so bad if you look.

I have seen the RX6700 non-XT for under £300 and the RX6600 can be had for £230! The Ryzen 5 5600 is now dropping in price too. The big issue is that if AM5 does not drop pricing significantly over the next year,what are we going to have under £300 with reasonably priced motherboards? The same goes with Intel once they drop DDR4 support with their next generation - we will end up with £150+ basic motherboards,and entry level six core CPUs at well over £200 from both companies. This sounds more and more like where the dGPU market is trying to head - almost like these companies are trying to increase margins to counter for lower overall sales. None of these companies can also use the excuse of increased TSMC costs,because TSMC has much more available volume nowon TSMC 5NM,as apparently Apple has reduced a lot of orders,and the restrictions on China probably further contributed to more available volume.

Could be heat related, though I think AMD could get away with a very high TDP 12/16 core Zen4 3D Cache model, considering the popularity of the very power hungry 13900k.

Maybe there's a mechanical/engineering related reason they can't do it currently, either way I'm disappointed.

But,it depends if the chip runs quite hot due to high thermal density,with the cache on top making it harder to cool. Also another thing is that most Ryzen 9 CPUs are probably sold to non-gamers and the L3 cache does not help in lots of applications apparently(just look at the Ryzen 7 5800X3D compared to the Ryzen 7 5800X).

 

[Journey]

Could be heat related, though I think AMD could get away with a very high TDP 12/16 core Zen4 3D Cache model, considering the popularity of the very power hungry 13900k.

Your conflating popularity and common sense. People choose the 13900K over the 12900K as it makes sense to get more for your money, that is why you think the 13900K is popular, when it's a logical choice. People aren't buying the 7950x instead of the 5950x as one is nearly double the cost of the other, but they doesn't make either popular or unpopular, as each serves a different market, where the 12th and 13th Gen Intel market don't, as they are serving the same.

12-16 Core x3D models will make sense in the crossover market that is workstation/HEDT, but they would be covered by Threadripper.

It's like the AVX-512 fiasco all over again, about how important it is in desktop CPU's, but I don't see you crowing about it anymore, now that it has been deleted from your preferred brand.

 

[Dave2150]

But,it depends if the chip runs quite hot due to high thermal density,with the cache on top making it harder to cool. Also another thing is that most Ryzen 9 CPUs are probably sold to non-gamers and the L3 cache does not help in lots of applications apparently(just look at the Ryzen 7 5800X3D compared to the Ryzen 7 5800X).

True. I'm still hoping this is just a rumour though and that 12/16 core versions are available!

 

[humbug]

I have seen the RX6700 non-XT for under £300 and the RX6600 can be had for £230! The Ryzen 5 5600 is now dropping in price too. The big issue is that if AM5 does not drop pricing significantly over the next year,what are we going to have under £300 with reasonably priced motherboards? The same goes with Intel once they drop DDR4 support with their next generation - we will end up with £150+ basic motherboards,and entry level six core CPUs at well over £200 from both companies. This sounds more and more like where the dGPU market is trying to head - almost like these companies are trying to increase margins to counter for lower overall sales. None of these companies can also use the excuse of increased TSMC costs,because TSMC has much more available volume nowon TSMC 5NM,as apparently Apple has reduced a lot of orders,and the restrictions on China probably further contributed to more available volume.

With the later CPU's that is exactly what they are doing.

For Intel its about margins, they are way under AMD's and they don't like it, they have had to make quite large expensive low margin products to compete.

AMD don't really care about AM5, i think if we were completely honest they just don't, Genoa is all conquering and they are about to take another chunk of Intel's datacentre market share, they want to be able to have the supply for that so they would really rather you didn't buy AM5.

But at least AM4 is now cheap, they are also very cheap for AMD to make, so they are quite happy for you to just keep buying AM4, AMD's GPU's are also priced very well, its a mixed bag with AMD, yes AM5 is too expensive, its overpriced because they don't actually want you buying them.

Nvidia had a massive revenue increase from Crypto and they don't want that to end, now they are telling us you don't want AMD because they don't have RT and DLSS so pay up.

Intel on the GPU side are a joke.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

True. I'm still hoping this is just a rumour though and that 12/16 core versions are available!

Depends on how far away Zen5 is though - Zen2 to Zen3 was under 18 months. If the Zen4 X3D models are launching in early 2023,then it could be just a year until Zen5 is launched.

With the later CPU's that is exactly what they are doing.

For Intel its about margins, they are way under AMD's and they don't like it, they have had to make quite large expensive low margin products to compete.

AMD don't really care about AM5, i think if we were completely honest they just don't, Genoa is all conquering and they are about to take another chunk of Intel's datacentre market share, they want to be able to have the supply for that so they would really rather you didn't buy AM5.

But at least AM4 is now cheap, they are also very cheap for AMD to make, so they are quite happy for you to just keep buying AM4, AMD's GPU's are also priced very well, its a mixed bag with AMD, yes AM5 is too expensive, its overpriced because they don't actually want you buying them.

Nvidia had a massive revenue increase from Crypto and they don't want that to end, now they are telling us you don't want AMD because they don't have RT and DLSS so pay up.

Intel on the GPU side are a joke.

My main concern is how it will look in 2024!

 

[g67575]

What the hell, my minimum framerate in AC: Odyssey is much higher now, got a minimum of 75 FPS at 1080p, on the previous runs with Nvidia's 517.48 GPU driver, I was getting minimums in the low 50s, with even lower spikes on some runs.

I suppose it could have been affected a little by my recent CPU tweaks (PBO set to -30, fclk 2133mhz).

The CPU utilization and latency is much much lower according to the game benchmark, with this driver (I've turned off hardware accelerated GPU scheduling for now, to avoid the GPU usage spiking issue).

I heard there was some special sauce in the 52.xxx drivers, that seems to lower CPU usage.

 

[uscool]

What the hell, my minimum framerate in AC: Odyssey is much higher now, got a minimum of 75 FPS at 1080p, on the previous runs with Nvidia's 517.48 GPU driver, I was getting minimums in the low 50s, with even lower spikes on some runs.

I suppose it could have been affected a little by my recent CPU tweaks (PBO set to -30, fclk 2133mhz).

The CPU utilization and latency is much much lower according to the game benchmark, with this driver (I've turned off hardware accelerated GPU scheduling for now, to avoid the GPU usage spiking issue).

I heard there was some special sauce in the 526.xx drivers, that seems to lower CPU usage.

you sure it wasnt this , once 4090 was reviewed it had bigger gap to 30 series but once reviews done they released the newer drivers which 30 series got a bump in peformance closed the gap to the 4090, clever isnt it

one example below
Cyberpunk 2077:
At 1440p: 3090 Ti with driver 522.25 is 16% faster than the previous driver. This moves the 4090 from being 48% faster to only being 28% faster than the 3090 Ti
At 4K: 3090 Ti with driver 522.25 is 7% faster than the previous driver. This moves the 4090 from being 57% faster than the 3090 Ti to being 46% faster

NVIDIA GeForce 522.25 Driver Analysis - Gains for all Generations

NVIDIA's newest drivers promise performance improvements for DirectX 12 games for Ampere. We put this to the test in our Driver Performance Analysis article, testing 25 games at three resolutions. Our benchmarks confirm: not only Ampere gets higher FPS, but Pascal and Turing, too.

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Noxia]

Do cooling properties change over time? I only ask because I just reset my BIOS and ran cinebench and yet my CPU is only getting to 91.

Edit. Also, used the Asus Ai oc thing, seems to have limited CPU temp to 70-80 which is weird. Occasional 90 spike but when I first assembled it, it would stay maxed out at 95 for the whole test

 

[Iron Man]

Surprised there are not going to be 12 or 16 core 7xxx3D chips but I suppose as a gamer I’m not going to even notice the difference anyway.

 

[cliffy]

True. I'm still hoping this is just a rumour though and that 12/16 core versions are available!

Lol, They could produce a 32 core 3D Cache variant 100 times faster then 13th gen Intel and only using 1 watt and you would still buy Intel

I reckon the 3D Cache 6 and 8 core is AMD targeting the mainstream gaming market and target teh 12 and 16 core performance market once yields have improved and production costs are lower

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Lots of Raptorlake results in this thread:

Fallout 4 CPU benchmark thread(need some Zen3 and Zen4 results!)

Background A few of us still play some of the old Creation Engine based games such as Fallout 4. Annoyingly a lot of reviewers don't seem to test older games anymore,and these generally benefit the most from better single threaded performance,faster memory speeds,etc. Fallout 4 tends to be...

forums.overclockers.co.uk

We need at least one Zen4 result please!

 

[alec]

Do cooling properties change over time? I only ask because I just reset my BIOS and ran cinebench and yet my CPU is only getting to 91.

Edit. Also, used the Asus Ai oc thing, seems to have limited CPU temp to 70-80 which is weird. Occasional 90 spike but when I first assembled it, it would stay maxed out at 95 for the whole test

recent bios introduced a cap on multicore speed described in https://skatterbencher.com/2022/10/26/update-on-ryzen-7000-c-state-boost-limit/
Could be that

 

[RBImGuy]

Surprised there are not going to be 12 or 16 core 7xxx3D chips but I suppose as a gamer I’m not going to even notice the difference anyway.

These chips with x3D technology fixes one of the main issue with games the latency hit for system ram.
That can be felt as some say, it feels smoother

 

[Tetras]

Haven't been keeping up with the thread, so this might have been posted already, but a heads-up (for anyone about to buy): the AM5 price cuts in China have hit the UK, at least they have with an offer code (7600X £261, 7700X £360, 7900X £455), so I expect more stores to follow suit for black friday.

 

[g67575]

Edit - Found that offer, it's time limited. Not a bad price for a 7700X, a bit less than what I paid.

There's a Chinese website (long delivery times, but offers payment via Paypal) selling Zen 4 CPUs, I wonder if these sellers can be trusted?

 

[Frenzy]

Haven't been keeping up with the thread, so this might have been posted already, but a heads-up (for anyone about to buy): the AM5 price cuts in China have hit the UK, at least they have with an offer code (7600X £261, 7700X £360, 7900X £455), so I expect more stores to follow suit for black friday.

praise the cpu gods

 

[g67575]

The Gigabyte B650M DS3H AM5 motherboard is 'only' £170-£180 now. Not a bad price.

I wonder if the 6+2+1 VRM design would be enough for an 8 core Zen 4 CPU? The CPU support page claims support for CPUs with 170w power consumption...

The ASRock B650M PG RIPTIDE only costs a little more and has a better VRM + PCIE5 for an NVME SSD...