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*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

Discussion in 'CPUs' started by Boomstick777, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Andreas.96

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 15, 2013

    Posts: 357

    We can dream can't we? :D

    Would certainly help the market if they did.
     
  2. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 24,285

    Location: Rutland

    It'd be awesome, I've always used AMD CPUs until Sandybridge, this is certainly an interesting CPU on paper.
     
  3. ALXAndy

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2010

    Posts: 9,985

    Location: West Sussex

    All it takes is the right API mate. Up until now we've been stuck on Direct X which is years old.

    We need some new APIs that like core count, and some more software too. The desktop market is years behind the server market, it needs to catch up if we're to keep buying rebadged server gear.

    It doesn't surprise me at all that AMD's new idea is primarily for the server market. Opterons have been very popular in servers due to their high core count and low price. They're literally half the price of the equivalent Xeon.
     
  4. Boomstick777

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 2, 2012

    Posts: 11,070

    Location: UK.

  5. mnc fear

    Gangster

    Joined: Nov 29, 2009

    Posts: 450

    I have two systems with FX8350's and I hope to hold out until new AMD CPU's come out next year

    In the Server space AMD don't have any traction at all - The current Opteron's are Old Tech which cannot simply compete with the latest Xeons.

    Sad but true
     
  6. Minstadave

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 8, 2004

    Posts: 24,285

    Location: Rutland

    An API isn't going to be a magic bullet. Game engines still need to be built to utilise multiple threads. An APi will just spread the graphics work over multiple cores, but the AI/sound/physics etc all still need to be tackled.
     
  7. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,549

    "An APi will just spread the graphics work over multiple cores"

    You say that as if its a useless innovation.

    This is the thread that the GPU / CPU use to communicate with eachother

    With DX11 all that "AI/sound/physics etc" calculated through multiple cores / threads gets called through only one thread.

    On a 4.7Ghz Vishera thread thats about 900K DrawCalls per second.
    On a 4.7Ghz Haswell thread its about 1.2M DrawCalls per second.

    Thats the maximum performance those CPU's can give the GPU regardless of how many other cores / threads it has or what they are doing.

    If the communication thread is increased from one to two your already doubling that performance.

    In reality with Mantle and DX12 an 8 thread CPU has 8 call threads made available to the GPU.
    The API is also much thinner and much more efficient.

    In the end an 8 core 4 thread Vishera CPU can push upto 15m Calls per second, a performance increase of 1600%.

    An 8 thread Haswell CPU about 22m, a performance increase of 1700%.

    PS:
    An 8 Core Vishera actually only has 4 Floating Point threads.
    Config: 2 core 1 thread @ 25% of total x4

    An 8 thread Haswell has 4 cores and 8 Floating Point threads
    Config: 1 core 1 thread at 20% + 1 thread at 5% x4.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
  8. ALXAndy

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Apr 23, 2010

    Posts: 9,985

    Location: West Sussex

    We're still not true multicore. Intel have done their level best to make sure that we still rely on very few.

    In Windows 8.1 if I bench my 8320 against my 8c 16t Xeon I can beat the Xeon in pretty much everything, barring a game or two.

    When I take that same 8c 16t Xeon into OSX which is Nix based? I can score over double the benchmark points of a 4670k @ 4.5ghz.

    AMD are just pushing to make the desktop market more like the server one, where 48 cores and more are the norm.

    I don't know if AMD will ever succeed in doing so, but I tell you what kudos to them for trying. It's high time that core count actually mattered. Why on earth would you want to limit, say, a hex core CPU to two threads? that's just a chokehold.

    AMD's 4-16 core Opterons were a complete success in server land. Why we're still here playing games that want 1-2 threads is just beyond me.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
  9. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,549

    With 8 integer units AMD are very good with integer performance, any type of direct number crunching they are good strong CPU's.
    They are actually a server CPU and much better suited to that.

    Vishera is let down for things like gaming not so much because a lack of raw FP performance but because of they way its designed.

    I said Vishera has 8 cores and 4 threads, thats not strictly true.

    There is a reason for this "modular design" its innovative but in practical terms flawed.

    Each module has 2 integer units and one or two FP threads depending on which configuration is called for.

    For example.

    Module Config:
    #1, 2 Integer + 1 256Bit FP thread
    #2, 2 Integer + 2 128Bit FP threads
    #3, 1 Big Integer + 1 256Bit FP thread

    The idea being that if you don't need so many threads you can have 4 fast ones, or if you need more threads you can have 8 slower ones, or you can have a combination of those.

    But you have to code for that and its not that easy, whats more most compilers are setup for Intel.

    A lot of times what you actually end up with is the two Integer units combined through one 128Bit FP, causing bottlenecks.

    The fact is if AMD want to compete with Intel they have to design their CPU's to work in the same way as Intel.

    There is just no desire for something different.

    And it seems AMD have accepted that now with these Zen APU's
     
  10. mnc fear

    Gangster

    Joined: Nov 29, 2009

    Posts: 450

    Intel are so afraid in the Server space is frightening

    Opteron's don't even get pushed these days at all & Big players like HP, Dell etc don't even do many AMD systems

    The CPU's are in serious need of a refresh as the features on latest Intel Servers are so far ahead these days.

    Most servers these days are 2 Socket 2U servers and it has been this way for many years & with Intel now offering 36 Physical cores which are better than their AMD counterparts then its going to need a Real show stopper to change this.

    Its not just about changing a CPU but changing buyers minds as Intel Virtualisation Farms are pretty much in Companies DNA to use & with AMD now battered I fear for their longevity in the performance space .
     
  11. Nutella33

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 15, 2011

    Posts: 2,770

  12. MasterOC

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Sep 29, 2014

    Posts: 1,415

    Location: Caithness , Wick

    They've banned exports to a specific set of recipients that deal in building supercomputersmusing intels CPUs , phi or otherwise , all that will happen is that purchases will be made through different channels .
     
  13. Boomstick777

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 2, 2012

    Posts: 11,070

    Location: UK.

     
  14. Boomstick777

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 2, 2012

    Posts: 11,070

    Location: UK.

    Rumors suggest AMD is eyeing a comeback with its new 16-core chip


    Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...back-with-its-new-16-core-chip/#ixzz3XJpp8IK0
     
  15. kohlditz

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 27, 2005

    Posts: 4,094

    Location: London innit

    This all depends on thermals, density and cost. If I can fit 16 cores into the same space as 8 cores at less heat/power per thread and get some free APU compute then it's a winner. If this makes sense to Amazon/Facebook/Google/Microsoft then they will sell boatloads.

    Desktops are fast enough these days.
     
  16. AthlonXP1800

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 28, 2014

    Posts: 2,745

    Location: Scotland

  17. Andreas.96

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 15, 2013

    Posts: 357

    How has the US Government got a right to ban these companies from doing business?

    I genuinely don't know if they do or not, this wasn't a dig at the US.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
  18. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,549

    With DX12 on its way it makes perfect sense to have a 16c 32t CPU.

    Do it AMD DO IT! :)
     
  19. Boomstick777

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jan 2, 2012

    Posts: 11,070

    Location: UK.

    AMD's Roy Taylor re-tweeted that Zen video, would he do that unless there was some truth to this Zen APU rumor?

    Come on AMD, make it happen !

    [​IMG]
     
  20. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 30,549

    If you look close one might see that those slides are camera phone pics of a large screen presentation, there is a date of February 2015 on one.

    If its fake its a fairly elaborate one, it has all the hallmarks of a member of an audience sneaking phone pics of the presentation out.

    It may have been a private presentation of some kind, like an investors event, 'someone' from AMD may have invited one or two press along for the event to 'accidentally leak' some of it.