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*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

Caporegime
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AMD's CPU's will find their correct price because no one will buy AMD because its AMD at almost any cost.
That is Intel's territory.

AMD's territory is 'cost effective alternative' if its not cheaper its not selling, simple.
 
Soldato
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AMD's CPU's will find their correct price because no one will buy AMD because its AMD at almost any cost.
That is Intel's territory.

AMD's territory is 'cost effective alternative' if its not cheaper its not selling, simple.

or - and I doubt this will be the case - AMD find themselves the clear performance leader for an important market segment like gaming and they charge whatever they can get away with.

It happened briefly in the Athlon 64 era.
 
Caporegime
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All good points and arguments but irrelevant.

No one is going to pay £300 for an 'AMD i7 6700K', such a chip would have to be no more than £200 to £220 to sell in the quantities that will make AMD relevant again and pull in revenue.

AMD may well try to charge £300 for such a chip, but they ain't going to sell and will soon find the price at which they will.
 
Caporegime
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Even if it has i7 6700K performance and competes with i5 on price they're still at a big disadvantage where it truly matters (ie. system builders) due to lack of a built in GPU.

They really need to be competing with 6700K with their 4-core/integrated GPU parts and the high end 8 core Zen needs to be competing with Intel's 6-8 core chips, anything less and it's going to be business as usual for AMD.
 
Caporegime
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They are making dedicated CPU's and APU's from the Zen cores, which is what a lot of people argue Intel should be doing. Me included.

The people who matter aren't arguing about it.
Intel have a high end with no IGP.

I basically have no complaints about the IGP stuff, I couldn't give a monkeys.
Likewise if AMD don't have an IGP, doesn't matter much.
 
Caporegime
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The people who matter aren't arguing about it.
Intel have a high end with no IGP.

I basically have no complaints about the IGP stuff, I couldn't give a monkeys.
Likewise if AMD don't have an IGP, doesn't matter much.

TBH i don't care at all that my 4690K has an iGPU, the first thing i did was turn it off, this before even installing the first time OS on it, its never been on, does it even work? :eek:

It doesn't appear to effect the CPU in anyway it being there so i also don't care that it is.

Having said all of that the chip was £200 and if it was cheaper without its iGPU its what i would have bought.

All of Intel's mainstream chips are APU's.
I would rather they had dedicated CPU's that were cheaper or made use of the die space in a way thats relevant to me.

'IF' AMD are running two production lines of chips, as they currently do, upto 4 core 8 thread or 6 core 12 thread APU's and upto 10 core 20 thread CPU's for the same die space and roughly cost then i will spend my money on whats relevant to me, more cores please!
 
Soldato
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I keep seeing talk of Zen competing with the 5960X. Surely that can't be right can it? Has just a specific use case been picked to create a favourable headline?
 
Caporegime
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I keep seeing talk of Zen competing with the 5960X. Surely that can't be right can it? Has just a specific use case been picked to create a favourable headline?

No one really knows what the IPC is, but, the rumour is more than Haswell/Devils Canyon and less than Sky Lake.

if that is true and there will be an 8 Core 16 thread Zen at the same clock rate then yes, it absolutely will compete with the 5960X.
 
Soldato
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No one really knows what the IPC is, but, the rumour is more than Haswell/Devils Canyon and less than Sky Lake.

if that is true and there will be an 8 Core 16 thread Zen at the same clock rate then yes, it absolutely will compete with the 5960X.

That could be very interesting especially if AMD undercut Intel by a decent amount.
 
Soldato
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AMD themselves said it is 40% more than Excavator.

Not enough to compete on IPC. Seems some people would like to ignore this but the facts are the facts.
 
Caporegime
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AMD themselves said it is 40% more than Excavator.

Not enough to compete on IPC. Seems some people would like to ignore this but the facts are the facts.
Martini is right, AMD say a lot of things, then again so do Intel and Nvidia.

Rumours are just that, but.

Excavator is 20% better than Piledriver 'another rumour', so 40% better than Excavator should amount to about 60% batter than Piledriver.

I don't know exactly what the IPC difference is between Haswell and Piledriver but i doubt its quite as much as 60%.
I know this, my 4 core 4690K is not quite a match for my FX-9590 at the same clock rate in situations where all cores are used.

Personally i think even if its only as fast as Sandy Bridge it will just make them so cheap a 6 core 12 thread or even 8 core 16 thread will be within reach of many more people and a lot of them would opt for more cores over IPC given the IPC is not a massive deficit like the FX8### are.

Some people prefer even those for their multi-threading capabilities over mainstream Intel chips.
 
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Soldato
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Martini is right, AMD say a lot of things, then again so do Intel and Nvidia.

Rumours are just that, but.

Excavator is 20% better than Piledriver 'another rumour', so 40% better than Excavator should amount to about 60% batter than Piledriver.

I don't know exactly what the IPC difference is between Haswell and Piledriver but i doubt its quite as much as 60%.
I know this, my 4 core 4690K is not quite a match for my FX-9590 at the same clock rate in situations where all cores are used.

Personally i think even if its only as fast as Sandy Bridge it will just make them so cheap a 6 core 12 thread or even 8 core 16 thread will be within reach of many more people and a lot of them would opt for more cores over IPC given the IPC is not a massive deficit like the FX8### are.

Some people prefer even those for their multi-threading capabilities over mainstream Intel chips.

Just to support all of the above, this is an interesting article which illustrates such a case very well:

http://wccftech.com/fx-8370-i5-6400-gaming-comparison/

FX-8370 trumped an i5-6400 both at stock and overclocked by a fairly clear margin. I bet if this test could hypothetically have been run five years ago. the i5 would have been the victor. Why? Because it's taken all this time for game developers to really start utilizing multi-core properly. The Bulldozer series wasn't actually a bad design, it just gambled on software developers taking advantage of it which they didn't. Now that they are, Piledriver CPUs are actually improving in a sense.

So yes, an 8c/16t AMD chip even with lower IPC, could be a very powerful chip and competitor to Skylake maybe.
 
Caporegime
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Just to support all of the above, this is an interesting article which illustrates such a case very well:

http://wccftech.com/fx-8370-i5-6400-gaming-comparison/

FX-8370 trumped an i5-6400 both at stock and overclocked by a fairly clear margin. I bet if this test could hypothetically have been run five years ago. the i5 would have been the victor. Why? Because it's taken all this time for game developers to really start utilizing multi-core properly. The Bulldozer series wasn't actually a bad design, it just gambled on software developers taking advantage of it which they didn't. Now that they are, Piledriver CPUs are actually improving in a sense.

So yes, an 8c/16t AMD chip even with lower IPC, could be a very powerful chip and competitor to Skylake maybe.

I have to admit i'm a little surprised by those results, i know the chip is capable of it under the right conditions but i didn't think the right conditions would ever come to light.

The problem for the architecture is quite simple, its nothing like an Intel and everything likes to treat any chip as if its an Intel, that doesn't work too well for the Bulldozer design.

The design is actually very clever, its programmable, first and still the only programmable consumer CPU.

Its modular design is often cited as a fault with it, that shows just how little its understood.

2 Integer Units in a dual 128Bit FPU (One module)
You can tell the dual 128Bit FPU's to combine to form one 256Bit FPU powered by one fat Integer Unit

Put simply it acts as a normal 8 core 8 thread CPU, or as a big fat 4 core 4 thread CPU, or any number of combinations.

If FP performance is what you need you tell the two FPU's in the module to combine for a nice fast 256Bit FPU.

If integer calc is what you need you would thread it through dual thread configuration to give you 8 threads.

If doing a combination of those you mix it up.

This design is a bit like having multiple CPU's on a single die.

With the FX-9590 i have set a video render going and then played BF4 while it was running in the background, i have never been able to do that with the 4690K.

The problem; because its seen as an Intel chip by almost everything it treats it as an 8 core 8 thread CPU only, so that low threaded FP performance that is so important for DX9, DX10 and even DX11 games, its requested simplistically by one or more of its 128Bit FPU's, not the combined fast 256Bit FPU that it would get if the Engine made the correct request to it.

The only engine i knew of that used these CPU's as intended was Cryengine, probably something to do with the fact that Crysis 3 was developed in partnership with AMD.

Result: An FX-8350 was faster than an i7 3770K in that game.

Now here is the thing, AMD had the option either to accept Intel's dominance and chose be an Intel clone knowing that way it wouldn't matter that its not an Intel, or they could do something different, something a bit new, a bit more advanced and perhaps a bit better but you would need to change the industry to your way of doing it.
AMD chose the latter.

Make your own minds up about AMD's choices.

Having said that, it looks to me that Zen is simply an Intel clone.
AMD learnt a hard lesson, a victory for the technology status quo.
 
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Soldato
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http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...utely-necessary-for-vr-slams-ps4s-performance

Article here makes mention of a Zen-Lite core architecture, not many details though. But i assume it is a 4 core Zen module with no or less level 3 cache compared to summit ridge. More than likely no lvl3 cache as the PS4 does not have it.

would still need to have SMT since it keeps the thread count at 8 as with the original PS4.

But a single quad with SMT Zen based CPU should have far more grunt than 8 Jaguar cores.
 
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