AMD’s DirectX 12 Advantage Explained – GCN Architecture More Friendly To Parallelism Than Maxwell

[D.P.]

Damage control misdirecting the uniformed, Oxide have been working with Nvidia on it for a year, Oxide even used code Nvidia submitted to them, Nvidia also have access to the source code.

Read it.
Nvidia submitting code is not dismissed. The fact is it is an AMD title heavily optimized by AMD with a GCN specific DX12 implementation.

There are some basic fact, if DX12 runs slower than DX11 then you have absolute a massively unoptimized game engine and the results of which are meaningless.

 

[D.P.]

Yes Oxide has even used some code to improve shader performance for Nvidia which is more than can be said for some devs who used Gameworks. Some are even banned from using AMD code due to Nvidia restrictions.

NVidia doesn't add any restrictions to what others can do with their game engine. They have spelled this out repeatedly, and so have the game developers.

 

[Harlequin]

Read it.
Nvidia submitting code is not dismissed. The fact is it is an AMD title heavily optimized by AMD with a GCN specific DX12 implementation.

There are some basic fact, if DX12 runs slower than DX11 then you have absolute a massively unoptimized game engine and the results of which are meaningless.

did you read it? its coded by DX12 spec - so stop saying its not. Nvidia helped and supplied code and had the source code for their own drivers.

 

[D.P.]

did you read it? its coded by DX12 spec - so stop saying its not. Nvidia helped and supplied code and had the source code for their own drivers.

Coded DX12 spec is utterly meaningless (where did I say it wasn't).
There are completely different GPU architectures put there, DX12 is a low level API, it hast to take into account the different architectures and HAVE HARDWARE SPECIFIC OPTIMIZATION built in to the game engine.

That is the whole damn, point of DX12, it is no longer a high level API that abstracts away what is under the hood. Game Developer snow have much more responsibly to put in more optmizations themselves because the drivers are doing less. AMD has massively optimized the game for their architecture, Nvidia has not because it is an AMD labeled game and Nvidia want to distance themselves from it. AMD are using this as marketing mouthpiece to give all the AMD fanboys stiffies, and it is working a dream for them right now.


You just wait to Legend of Fabels or the first Crytek/UE4/Unity5 games to appear. Fables will be an excellent test, developed by MS without any AMD or Nvidia control.

 

[andybird123]

The developers made a slightly cryptic statement about not accepting help from IHV's that isn't future proof... It could be that NVIDIA have supplied code that helps with scheduling on their hardware and Oxide don't want to use it - why they cant just add a seperate "nvidia" code path with nvidia's code is a mystery they haven't explained

 

[Harlequin]

again stop spouting fan buy rubbish.

its coded as per DX12 , so it goes down to metal ; and if that metal is weak is at parallelism which is the new tech DX12 brings then it shows - pascal is new tech so will be stronger

but that's ok if you didn't actually understand what DX12 brings to the table.

 

[Feyy]

I just want NVidia to fix the horrific windows 10 driver mess.

Here I am with my AMD drivers on Windows 10 without issue. Ah, those delicious feels.

 

[D.P.]

The developers made a slightly cryptic statement about not accepting help from IHV's that isn't future proof... It could be that NVIDIA have supplied code that helps with scheduling on their hardware and Oxide don't want to use it - why they cant just add a seperate "nvidia" code path with nvidia's code is a mystery they haven't explained

Yes, the developer mistakenly thinks that with a low-level API you can somehow write code that will work optimally on all hardware, which is absurdly wrong. That was the model of DX before 11 because the API was more abstracted from the hardware and it was the responsibility of the drivers optimize the draw calls relative to the underlying hardware, something Nvidia was very good at. With DX12 the game developer has much more responsibility, evidently something Oxide have failed miserably at. If you can't write a DX12 code path that is faster than the DX11 path then you have failed to code properly. Nvidia set a high bar with their DX11 driver, Oxide failed to clear that bar (for various reasons).



Sadly I think in the future we are going to see far bigger swings in performance between games based on who the developer is working with. The best bets is 3rd party engines like Unreal and Cryengine start to dominate and bring optimal code paths to different GPUS.

 

[andybird123]

again stop spouting fan buy rubbish.

its coded as per DX12 , so it goes down to metal ; and if that metal is weak is at parallelism which is the new tech DX12 brings then it shows - pascal is new tech so will be stronger

but that's ok if you didn't actually understand what DX12 brings to the table.

Umkay, so if dx12 is to the metal, then how comes DX12 is actually slower than DX11 for NVIDIA hardware... At the very least DX12 should be equal. If its not then there is something happening "before the metal" that is causing a slow down when it shouldn't.

 

[Harlequin]

Umkay, so if dx12 is to the metal, then how comes DX12 is actually slower than DX11 for NVIDIA hardware... At the very least DX12 should be equal. If its not then there is something happening "before the metal" that is causing a slow down when it shouldn't.

because of the contents of first post maybe??

 

[D.P.]

again stop spouting fan buy rubbish.

its coded as per DX12 , so it goes down to metal ; and if that metal is weak is at parallelism which is the new tech DX12 brings then it shows - pascal is new tech so will be stronger

but that's ok if you didn't actually understand what DX12 brings to the table.

You are the only one spouting rubbish I'm afraid. You are the one that clearly doesn't understand what DX12 is. You logic would on;ly be true if all GPUs were equal, but they aren't.They all have significant differences, even within the same brand (GCN 1.1 vs 1.2).


"coded as per DX12" , what are completely meaningless statement. Nvidia could bribe a DX12 game engine developer to put in insane levels of tessellation, that would still be within DX12 spec, and we all know how that would work on AMD hardware!


We can see this with Mantle. in Thief the 285 (GCN 1.2) lost a huge amount of performance as did the the FuryX in BF4 and they both ended up far slower than the DX1 code path despite being "coded to Mantle spec". the reason is because the game engines were only optimized for GCN1.1 architecture.

 

[fs123]

Yes, the developer mistakenly thinks that with a low-level API you can somehow write code that will work optimally on all hardware, which is absurdly wrong. That was the model of DX before 11 because the API was more abstracted from the hardware and it was the responsibility of the drivers optimize the draw calls relative to the underlying hardware, something Nvidia was very good at. With DX12 the game developer has much more responsibility, evidently something Oxide have failed miserably at. If you can't write a DX12 code path that is faster than the DX11 path then you have failed to code properly. Nvidia set a high bar with their DX11 driver, Oxide failed to clear that bar (for various reasons).



Sadly I think in the future we are going to see far bigger swings in performance between games based on who the developer is working with. The best bets is 3rd party engines like Unreal and Cryengine start to dominate and bring optimal code paths to different GPUS.

The game is not coded in Mantle or something AMD specific, it's DX12 believe it or not. If devs started deviating from the specs then I guess there is no point writing for DX12. I think many here are in denial that AMD now have drivers which are actually on par with Nvidia's i.e low API overhead.

If AMD can get a decent boost in Project cars with DX12 drivers then it proves their DX11 drivers are well behind. PCars is not even DX12 yet.

 

[D.P.]

because of the contents of first post maybe??

The contents of the first post is largely baseless waffle that the fanboys lap up, with the odd snippet of truth in it. The truth is AMD and nvidia have different hardware, in fact AMD have different hardware within GCN. Different hardware needs to be coded for differently, DX12 makes that extremely important because it is now a low level API and the unlike the high level DX11, the drivers have less responsibility in optimizing for specific architectures.

 

[maonayze]

Coded DX12 spec is utterly meaningless (where did I say it wasn't).
There are completely different GPU architectures put there, DX12 is a low level API, it hast to take into account the different architectures and HAVE HARDWARE SPECIFIC OPTIMIZATION built in to the game engine.

That is the whole damn, point of DX12, it is no longer a high level API that abstracts away what is under the hood. Game Developer snow have much more responsibly to put in more optmizations themselves because the drivers are doing less. AMD has massively optimized the game for their architecture, Nvidia has not because it is an AMD labeled game and Nvidia want to distance themselves from it. AMD are using this as marketing mouthpiece to give all the AMD fanboys stiffies, and it is working a dream for them right now.


You just wait to Legend of Fabels or the first Crytek/UE4/Unity5 games to appear. Fables will be an excellent test, developed by MS without any AMD or Nvidia control.

So who cares if a few AMD Fanboys are having a five minute stiffy (As you put it). Are you so full of hate for them that you do not want to let them have a few minutes of one-upmanship and enjoy a bit of a song and dance about it. It's been a long time coming so why not let those dogs have their day.

D.P. you really do seem to be bitter and twisted about all of this. You rant about AOTS being an AMD endorsed game....FFS, how many Nvidia endorsed games have there been and how many are coming out in the future?

You never seem to say "Oh Nvidia endorsed that game so that's probably why its running better on Nvidia Cards." However, You do say (All too often IMHO) "AMD cards cant run this as good as Nvidia cards coz their drivers are crap or their developers cant release optimized drivers quick enough".

At least be consistent and level the same criticisms at Nvidia when the shoe is on the other foot. Like all Green Team Fanboys you seem to pick your arguments to suit your own ends and not just stick to the facts.

Personally, I think it's great that this is happening because if it means that AMD can get some market share back (about 30% should do it) then it means that it will be better for ALL gamers. Not just one side or the other.

Two great companies going head to head and edging each other at every turn can only mean better things for GFX card technology as a whole. Either one destroying the other will be bad for everyone.

As for the rest of you, please lets do some growing up...you know who you are!!!

 

[D.P.]

The game is not coded in Mantle or something AMD specific, it's DX12 believe it or not. If devs started deviating from the specs then I guess there is no point writing for DX12. I think many here are in denial that AMD now have drivers which are actually on par with Nvidia's i.e low API overhead.

If AMD can get a decent boost in Project cars with DX12 drivers then it proves their DX11 drivers are well behind. PCars is not even DX12 yet.

For the last time, coding to DX12 spec is meaningless, It doesn't matter at all that DX12 is not AMD specific. IF Nvidia put in massive amounts of Tessellation that would still comply to DX12 spec and the AMD cards would be crushed. i sure bet you wouldn't be claiming it is a balanced test then.

The actual code has been highly optimized by AMD to suit AMD hardware.

It has nothing to do with AMD DX12 drivers or any other.

project Cars was written to DX11 spec, I thought writing to spec was all that matters, or are you now changing your mind? Or was it simply the case that Project CARS was coded in a way that happened to run better on Nvidia hardware. Project CARS was not a Nvidia game, no matter how much AMD PR tries to claim it is.

 

[Lokken86]

The contents of the first post is largely baseless waffle that the fanboys lap up, with the odd snippet of truth in it. The truth is AMD and nvidia have different hardware, in fact AMD have different hardware within GCN. Different hardware needs to be coded for differently, DX12 makes that extremely important because it is now a low level API and the unlike the high level DX11, the drivers have less responsibility in optimizing for specific architectures.

You're right here. The two architectures are at a crossroads with dx12 and will not respond the same way.

 

[maonayze]

For the last time, coding to DX12 spec is meaningless.................................................................................................................project Cars was written to DX11 spec, I thought writing to spec was all that matters, or are you now changing your mind?

It seems like your changing your mind in the same thread here....So tell us, is it meaningless to code to a spec or not.

 

[D.P.]

So who cares if a few AMD Fanboys are having a five minute stiffy (As you put it). Are you so full of hate for them that you do not want to let them have a few minutes of one-upmanship and enjoy a bit of a song and dance about it. It's been a long time coming so why not let those dogs have their day.

D.P. you really do seem to be bitter and twisted about all of this. You rant about AOTS being an AMD endorsed game....FFS, how many Nvidia endorsed games have there been and how many are coming out in the future?

You never seem to say "Oh Nvidia endorsed that game so that's probably why its running better on Nvidia Cards." However, You do say (All too often IMHO) "AMD cards cant run this as good as Nvidia cards coz their drivers are crap or their developers cant release optimized drivers quick enough".

At least be consistent and level the same criticisms at Nvidia when the shoe is on the other foot. Like all Green Team Fanboys you seem to pick your arguments to suit your own ends and not just stick to the facts.

Personally, I think it's great that this is happening because if it means that AMD can get some market share back (about 30% should do it) then it means that it will be better for ALL gamers. Not just one side or the other.

Two great companies going head to head and edging each other at every turn can only mean better things for GFX card technology as a whole. Either one destroying the other will be bad for everyone.

As for the rest of you, please lets do some growing up...you know who you are!!!

I have never claimed that AMD running poorly on an Nvidia endorsed game reflects badly on AMD hardware or drivers, merely pointed out that Nvidia spends far more resources helping game developers. If AMD did the same amount of developer initiatives then things would liekly be much more balanced across the score boards.
Of course a games works game will typically run well on Nvidia hardware, and will most of the time run well on AMD hardware but Nvidia are hardly going to spend a fortune optimization the competitions code path. the simple solution is that AMD can provide support for their harwdare and NVndiai for their hardware. Nothign in gamesworks or TWIMTBP licensing prevents AMD involvement and optimization, despite what some fanboys would say


And then there is the fact that under DX11, AMD had much greater ability to optimize for their hardware. In X12, that ability is greatly reduced and the game developer now has to do that optimization.


And then there is the fact that some people will just make complete false claims about nvidia involvement. Project CARS is a classic. It is not a NVidia title, it does not use GPU PhysX, the developers received poor support form AMD. AMD then make a huge marketing stunt for the fanboys before it is torn apart by cold hard facts.

 

[maonayze]

IF Nvidia put in massive amounts of Tessellation that would still comply to DX12 spec and the AMD cards would be crushed.

Yep, he definitely has some sort of deep rooted hatred of Team Red bubbling under there.

Sad really

 

[D.P.]

It seems like your changing your mind in the same thread here....So tell us, is it meaningless to code to a spec or not.