Apple to replace Intel and move to ARM - *** Confirmed as "Apple Silicon" ***
- Thread starter UberTiger
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Don
I've renamed this thread to discuss anything related to the x86->ARM move (hardware or not)
The other thread can be continued for anything else announced not related to the ARM move.
Many have tried and many have failed. Nvidia have wanted x86 since I can remember. If Intel could manage it, nobody would have it.
Don
Microsoft have 32bit x86 emulation running on Windows ARM and are still working on adding 64 bit support:
https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-close-to-emulating-x64-code-emulation-on-arm/
I can't find any benchmarks on the Surface Pro X (as it supposedly had some "special" hardware assistance for emulation), but a standard Snapdragon 835 didn't perform that well:
https://www.techspot.com/review/1599-windows-on-arm-performance/page2.html
https://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-close-to-emulating-x64-code-emulation-on-arm/
I can't find any benchmarks on the Surface Pro X (as it supposedly had some "special" hardware assistance for emulation), but a standard Snapdragon 835 didn't perform that well:
https://www.techspot.com/review/1599-windows-on-arm-performance/page2.html
It's got some way to go. Celeron level performance is not a shocking start though.
Soldato
Emulation, sure; but why would an ARM producer implement the needed hardware to allow for x86/64 virtualisation?
As you say, it's a good start, but i think it'll be a fair while before we'll see comparable performance (to today). I think all of us that do run the odd x86/64 VM will need to move to dedicated hardware or push them to the 'cloud'.
Although i am interested in if it'll be possible to 'Bootcamp' 'nix (or even Windows) ARM variants at some point....
Soldato
Very much a pain in the backside for people who wish to run VMs locally - i guess the option is to run VMs on demand on Azure or AWS, which comes with the requirement for an internet connection for access.
Yup, it's going to be make or break for me for work (I work for VMware). However I'm fairly confident Fusion will be updated to run on ARM and support x86 based VMs.
Again very different era and architecture but it has been done in the past - ARM hardware as used in Acorn machines allowed for fairly flexible co-processors to be added in and you could get an add-in board designed for purely accelerating x86/Windows emulation/virtualisation unfortunately I don't remember the name of it now.
Soldato
If running say a windows VM online, then how does that work when you plug in a particular random piece of hardware into your local machine, can you still pass it though to windows and install drivers for it? Or if you run windows to run Winbox to update your router. How can you do this via an online VM?
You can't - an online VM would only run on and use the hardware at the host end.
Soldato
That depends what you mean by hardware - you can forward your USB Ports, Disk Drives etc from the machine you are joining from, but not things like Graphics Cards
Had forgotten you can do USB redirection - but most hardware you can't.
Don
https://semiaccurate.com/2020/05/26/arm-outs-custom-x-program-cortex-x1-and-cortex-a78-cores/
Missed this article when it first came out, but seems relevant to recent news
Performance focused and Double the Neon SIMD instruction units sounds ideal for Desktop usage (and potentially improved x86 emulation)
Missed this article when it first came out, but seems relevant to recent news
Performance focused and Double the Neon SIMD instruction units sounds ideal for Desktop usage (and potentially improved x86 emulation)
Soldato
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It sounds like apple decided to switch away from intel back in 2015. Seems the debacle of skylake was the final nail in the coffin.
Soldato
IIRC that was a dedicated processor on a module (386/486 rings bells) and i can't see Apple doing that with any of their hardware except maybe a Mac Pro but i think we'll see pigs flying before that happens
Similarly, i doubt we'll see Apple implement x86/64 into their own silicon.
Do you know if this will be virtualisation of "OS" for ARM (ie - Windows for ARM) OS's, which is what a lot of articles are stating, or if VMware is working on emulating x86/64, which is what the majority of users really want/need?
I have no idea I'm afraid.
Edit, that isn't supported by Big Sur.
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/23/rosetta-wont-support-x86-virtualization-windows/
Edit, that isn't supported by Big Sur.
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/23/rosetta-wont-support-x86-virtualization-windows/
IIRC that was a dedicated processor on a module (386/486 rings bells) and i can't see Apple doing that with any of their hardware except maybe a Mac Pro but i think we'll see pigs flying before that happens
Similarly, i doubt we'll see Apple implement x86/64 into their own silicon.
Yeah there was a 386/486 module but I can't remember the name of it now - we had two A5000 systems at school with it.
As a general user I'm excited to see what can be brought with the ARM transition, with performance improvements, battery life etc. However, this also puts me in a pickle in regards to buying a new one. I'm still on an Early-2011 13" MBP onto which I've hacked Catalina as it wasn't natively supported, and I'm about to start working at a Uni which means I get a lovely Edu discount to knock a couple of hundred quid off a new one.
Apple have said they'll "support Intel macs for years" yet, but that could be just three and then I'm SOL. In addition to that, I'd be slightly weary of taking first-gen hardware, particularly if you imagine that Apple may also drop Thunderbolt to avoid Intel licensing and go to USB4. At the same time, perhaps (this could be optimism to the point of foolishness) we will see a price drop across the range with the money saved from onboarding their silicon processes.
What a pickle!
Apple have said they'll "support Intel macs for years" yet, but that could be just three and then I'm SOL. In addition to that, I'd be slightly weary of taking first-gen hardware, particularly if you imagine that Apple may also drop Thunderbolt to avoid Intel licensing and go to USB4. At the same time, perhaps (this could be optimism to the point of foolishness) we will see a price drop across the range with the money saved from onboarding their silicon processes.
What a pickle!
