Apple vs Samsung, court orders Samsung to show Apple 5 new phones

Oh yeah, I forgot it's cool to hate Apple.

Jesus. Grow up.

That it might be, but the reasoning behind hating Apple is not made any less valid. Apple are notoriously and factually known for 'appropriating' IP and then claiming it as their own. They routinely screw over both their 3rd party developers and their own customers (i.e. $200 for extra memory when you can buy it for $25 elsewhere and also remembering how they force their 'business partners' like O2 to bend over when it comes to phone contracts). They also hugely overcharge for the technology when comparatively it tends to be sub par.

Hating Apple may well be the 'new cool' but if you take the time to research them as a company and take note of their business practice and their hugely anticompetitive nature, it's hard to be particularly enamoured to them.

EDIT: I think it's pretty clear that this is not an IP protection process but an anticompetitive action in light of significantly better and more capable devices coming to market and Apple seeing their market share gradually but steadily lessening.
 
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That it might be, but the reasoning behind hating Apple is not made any less valid. Apple are notoriously and factually known for 'appropriating' IP and then claiming it as their own. They routinely screw over both their 3rd party developers and their own customers (i.e. $200 for extra memory when you can buy it for $25 elsewhere and also remembering how they force their 'business partners' like O2 to bend over when it comes to phone contracts). They also hugely overcharge for the technology when comparatively it tends to be sub par.

Hating Apple may well be the 'new cool' but if you take the time to research them as a company and take note of their business practice and their hugely anticompetitive nature, it's hard to be particularly enamoured to them.

EDIT: I think it's pretty clear that this is not an IP protection process but an anticompetitive action in light of significantly better and more capable devices coming to market and Apple seeing their market share gradually but steadily lessening.

So here's the deal. I know I pay more for an Apple product. Am I okay with that? Yes. Why? Because it's a premium product. I know they charge double for RAM. That doesn't bother me. It bothers cheapskates that don't understand why someone would pay more for a MacBook over a cheap Windows laptop. I know I pay for R&D costs, and I know I pay probably twice the price it costs Apple to build the product. And thats how they market it so I'm fine with that. Why? Because nothing else comes remotely close. Most Windows laptops have crappy displays, average battery life, creaky plasticky design and terrible trackpads.

I'll happily pay extra to have my devices work seamlessly together without me even having to think about it. Time is money, and I don't want to waste hours searching for ways to do things on an Android or Windows device that I can pay the extra for and do with a couple of clicks on an Apple device.

Apple do steal ideas. Everyone does. The patent system is broken. What Apple do tend to do however is take a technology, do extensive user testing so it's robust and works well and then releases it. Then we'll see a similar rehash from another company, Apple sues and then people cry "on noes it was done before Apple!" without realising that Apple's implementation of a technology was what was copied.

And I'm not an 'Apple fanboy'. If someone else can do this better I'm jumping ship straight away. But I just don't see it happening. Apple have the technology, software development and delivery platforms in place. Google seem to be all over the place in comparison.

In regards to making companies bend over backwards for them, this is a good thing personally. For example it means that I don't get a phone full of crappy carrier software that I can't remove. I'm still yet to see these "better" devices you speak of too. Performance wise they may be technically better on paper but Android still feels very unpolished compared to iOS and the hardware simply isn't being utilised. Android tablets are still a joke too it would seem but people are buying them because they're cheap.

That's why Android devices are popular. They're cheap. And I'm saying that having lived with Apple devices I'll happily pay the extra for a premium experience; I wish people would understand that before knocking them.
 
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In regards to making companies bend over backwards for them, this is a good thing personally. For example it means that I don't get a phone full of crappy carrier software that I can't remove. I'm still yet to see these "better" devices you speak of too. Performance wise they may be technically better on paper but Android still feels very unpolished compared to iOS and the hardware simply isn't being utilised. Android tablets are still a joke too it would seem but people are buying them because they're cheap.

That's why Android devices are popular. They're cheap. And I'm saying that having lived with Apple devices I'll happily pay the extra for a premium experience; I wish people would understand that before knocking them.

I was with you up until here, Android 4.0/4.1 is generally every bit as smooth as iOS and they're not particularly cheap, either. A high end Android handset costs the same as an iPhone.
 
Entirely in your opinion. Android tablets are a huge distance from being a joke. For example my Transformer has 18hrs of battery life, 2 full size USB ports that will recognise pretty much anything I plug into them including games controllers, USB Drives, SD readers, my Nikon SLR and ironically, my iPod. It has a full size SD reader, a micro SD reader and an HDMI out. The UI is super crisp, slick and for the most part customisable with the ability to use Widgets and live wallpapers and the browsers allow the use of flash. Android is beautifully polished, you clearly haven't had your hands on one recently (if at all) So your call the the tablets are 'a joke' doesn't hold any sway at all IMO.

In as far as suggesting that 'windows desktops are creaky and flimsy' and have crappy displays, you clearly haven't done your research.

For the record, there is an iMac, two Macbook Pros, an iPad and my iPod in the house so I have had plenty of exposure to the devices and use them regularly. All my devices (excluding the Apple ones) integrate seamlessly and for the most part wirelessly without hassle or messing around. As for IOS - the functionality is frankly moronic in places where they have clearly chosen to do things differently, just for the sakes of doing it differently. The file system is enormously irritating, the random acts of removing functionality in 'upgrades' is stupidity and the steady migration toward a heavily corralled Apple centric application distribution is frankly concerning.

Whilst you may be getting a 'seamless' experience, you are also getting a steadily reduced experience that will require two things of you. First Apple will keep making you pay more and more for the privilege, and second they will continue to take away the option of purchasing from anywhere else other than from them. You'd like to think that you're paying for R&D costs but the reality is that you're paying for the lovely glowing logo on the back of your devices.

I have come from an environment where I have a truely cross platform experience, Linux, Windows, Novell Netware, OS2, Solaris UNIX, RISC OS and yes IOS. As pretty as IOS is, it's honestly the only one where rather than looking to add functionality and increase its open nature, they have gone in entirely the opposite direction and taken away from their users, corralled the system and made it harder to use anything other than Apple products. You are going to end up with a very beautiful slab of square glass (with rounded edges) with a nice glowing Apple logo in the middle of it pulsing gently letting you know that all is well in your Apple world.

IMO of course.
 
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I was with you up until here, Android 4.0/4.1 is generally every bit as smooth as iOS and they're not particularly cheap, either. A high end Android handset costs the same as an iPhone.

I was more talking about the Mac side of things, but it still mostly applies to phones too. I still find Android devices tend to have hiccups and you'll get the occasional lag and unresponsiveness that you don't find on an iPhone.

Entirely in your opinion. Android tablets are a huge distance from being a joke. For example my Transformer has 18hrs of battery life, 2 full size USB ports that will recognise pretty much anything I plug into them including games controllers, USB Drives, SD readers, my Nikon SLR and ironically, my iPod. It has a full size SD reader, a micro SD reader and an HDMI out. The UI is super crisp, slick and for the most part customisable with the ability to use Widgets and live wallpapers and the browsers allow the use of flash. Android is beautifully polished, you clearly haven't had your hands on one recently (if at all) So your call the the tablets are 'a joke' doesn't hold any sway at all IMO.

That's all well and good. But what about the App ecosystem? You cannot seriously say that Android tablets have the upper hand when it comes to applications, which is after all, the main point of a tablet.

Adobe have now dropped flash support with most places now going HTML 5, and as for widgets and live wallpapers, I simply do not want them. Sure you may like it but it's really not the selling point of a device. I've used multiple Android tablets recently and they still lack polish.

How much battery life do you get in actual usage? And I'm not talking about running a text editor with your screen brightness on lowest with everything switched off on a custom ROM. I'm talking about out of the box, real world usage.

In as far as suggesting that 'windows desktops are creaky and flimsy' and have crappy displays, you clearly haven't done your research.

I was talking about laptops. By the time you find a laptop that has a similar quality display and decent battery life you're already spending as much as a MacBook anyway. Plus I've yet to find a single Windows laptop that has a touchpad that's anywhere as good as a standard one you'd find on a MacBook. Agreeably Mac Pro's are expensive for what they are but people buy them more for the OS anyway due to what they're used for. iMacs I can understand better as Windows integrated machines look horrid in comparison.

For the record, there is an iMac, two Macbook Pros, an iPad and my iPod in the house so I have had plenty of exposure to the devices and use them regularly. All my devices (excluding the Apple ones) integrate seamlessly and for the most part wirelessly without hassle or messing around. As for IOS - the functionality is frankly moronic in places where they have clearly chosen to do things differently, just for the sakes of doing it differently. The file system is enormously irritating, the random acts of removing functionality in 'upgrades' is stupidity and the steady migration toward a heavily corralled Apple centric application distribution is frankly concerning.

I was more referring to Apple proprietary integration; AirPlay, AirPrint, AirDrop iTunes sharing and the like. As mentioned before the way they do things works so I don't contest it. It's just less hassle than all of these different technologies from various companies that don't always work very well together.

Whilst you may be getting a 'seamless' experience, you are also getting a steadily reduced experience that will require two things of you. First Apple will keep making you pay more and more for the privilege, and second they will continue to take away the option of purchasing from anywhere else other than from them. You'd like to think that you're paying for R&D costs but the reality is that you're paying for the lovely glowing logo on the back of your devices.

And that's the thing. I'm sold on it. It works. That's what I want it to do. I'll happily pay a premium over other products for that service. That being said they haven't ramped up prices so I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't mind being tied in when I'm getting a premium service.

I have come from an environment where I have a truely cross platform experience, Linux, Windows, Novell Netware, OS2, Solaris UNIX, RISC OS and yes IOS. As pretty as IOS is, it's honestly the only one where rather than looking to add functionality and increase its open nature, they have gone in entirely the opposite direction and taken away from their users, corralled the system and made it harder to use anything other than Apple products. You are going to end up with a very beautiful slab of square glass (with rounded edges) with a nice glowing Apple logo in the middle of it pulsing gently letting you know that all is well in your Apple world.

You don't get it do you? The beauty of Apple products is the ecosystem they've built for them. The fact that iOS is closed means that I get a consistent experience. That's what I want at the end of the day.

As I said before I don't care that it has a glowing Apple on the back. If anyone else can do it better I'll buy their product. It really is that simple.
 
Well if you can patent every obvious software idea and then hold other companies to ranson for it, then either the company tries to pay for the idea which costs the consumer more or the consumer can only go to one place to get it.

The irritating thing is most of the software patents are for things they have not done, figured out or released yet, like a just in case patent. Meaning that if some other company does it first they cant release it. So it will turn into a game of lets patent every idea that we have so the other guy can't do it.

That will force innovation not harm it by your own argument.

None of the Apple patents were crucial to a phone - they are probably the best way of doing things but NOT the only way to do things.

Also why don't Samsung have loads of desirable non crucial phone patents? Is it because they cannot innovate?

Looks like even Google thought Samsung were ripping off the iPhone and Google are hardly innocent of that:

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/08/27/google-looks-to-distance-android-from-apple-vs-samsung-ruling/

The S4 will probably be triangular with pentagon shaped icons. :D
 
I was more talking about the Mac side of things, but it still mostly applies to phones too. I still find Android devices tend to have hiccups and you'll get the occasional lag and unresponsiveness that you don't find on an iPhone.

Granted it may have the odd stutter however the trade off is overall a more powerful and functional device that does everything so well, including word processing and spreadsheets i.e. Office integration, movie playback directly into a HD TV, importing of my photos from my camera and a crisp and complete browsing experience and total integration with social networking.

That's all well and good. But what about the App ecosystem? You cannot seriously say that Android tablets have the upper hand when it comes to applications, which is after all, the main point of a tablet.

But it's not about having the upper hand, it's about having the equivalent - it's not 'anything you can do, I can do better' it's 'anything you can do, I can too'. The apps that you get on your iPad have the same or a parallel in the Android world.

Adobe have now dropped flash support with most places now going HTML 5, and as for widgets and live wallpapers, I simply do not want them. Sure you may like it but it's really not the selling point of a device. I've used multiple Android tablets recently and they still lack polish.

Adobe has but Flash has broadly populated the internet and it's use is going to be around for a while yet - I would argue that in the period that I have had my Android tablet I have enjoyed a fuller internet experience than you have (regardless of industry posturing) than you have over the same.

How much battery life do you get in actual usage? And I'm not talking about running a text editor with your screen brightness on lowest with everything switched off on a custom ROM. I'm talking about out of the box, real world usage.

Real life useage - I don't actively do anything to save batteries save not leaving WIFI on when it's not needed (i.e. on the plane) but at home it's on 24/7. As an example I not long ago did 30hrs worth of flying, watched about 4 movies, played a few games and still had around 1/3 of the battery left. real world I need to recharge every couple of days and it's generally on whilst I'm playing games, or sitting in the living room watching TV whilst browsing or using Pulse or reading graphic novels. I get a great deal of real world usage.

I was talking about laptops. By the time you find a laptop that has a similar quality display and decent battery life you're already spending as much as a MacBook anyway. Plus I've yet to find a single Windows laptop that has a touchpad that's anywhere as good as a standard one you'd find on a MacBook. Agreeably Mac Pro's are expensive for what they are but people buy them more for the OS anyway due to what they're used for. iMacs I can understand better as Windows integrated machines look horrid in comparison.

This is true right up until you start adding memory, or buying a bigger HDD or god forbid an SSD which you have to take out a second mortgage for.

I was more referring to Apple proprietary integration; AirPlay, AirPrint, AirDrop iTunes sharing and the like. As mentioned before the way they do things works so I don't contest it. It's just less hassle than all of these different technologies from various companies that don't always work very well together.

I've actually never experienced any hassles with technologies mainly because 3rd parties generate the best drivers etc for the highest common OS. Whether Windows is 'better' or not is greatly subjective and relative to the use of the device. I've also found that it relates to familiarity. Familiarity does not equal a better way. There is a related argument with Windows 8 and the moronic changes that Windows have made in an effort to emulate Apples money making eco system. It's better to line their pockets but it sure as hell isn't better for us as consumers.

And that's the thing. I'm sold on it. It works. That's what I want it to do. I'll happily pay a premium over other products for that service. That being said they haven't ramped up prices so I'm not sure what you mean by that. I don't mind being tied in when I'm getting a premium service.

Whether it is a premium service is debatable - that it is exclusive is inarguable, but if it is better for you as a user in the long term is both subjective and relative to your demands as a user. Both in the enterprise world and in my everyday use IOS, OSX and Apple products are more of a hindrance than a pleasure and not even close to being what I'd consider a premium experience. Add to the the insufferable anal nature of the Apple payments system, it makes for an extremely frustrating and condescending experience.

You don't get it do you? The beauty of Apple products is the ecosystem they've built for them. The fact that iOS is closed means that I get a consistent experience. That's what I want at the end of the day.

As I said before I don't care that it has a glowing Apple on the back. If anyone else can do it better I'll buy their product. It really is that simple.

No I get it, you like Apple products. You enjoy the feel, the look and the experience you get relative to the demands you have as a user. 3-4 years ago I would've been envious of you as a Mac owner, I was one of the many that rigged my machine to dual boot into OSX86 and I too loved the experience, the look and the feel of the Apple world. However what I saw was an egomaniac rapidly constricting the freedoms of his customers, removing functionality to 'retain user experience' and selling products that lacked basic key functionality (like cut and paste, push email and enterprise integration)all the while keeping the world convinced that they were getting a great deal by appealing the the magpie nature of people (i.e. "woo look a shiney thing"). The end product is the greatest example of marketing the world has ever seen short of selling an eskimo ice.

This case is Apple using everything but technology innovation to beat their competitors. There is better stuff out there at similar prices, there are nicer and more complete user experiences that don't tie you into a constrictive eco system and in typical Apple fashion, rather than beating them at the technology game, they have lawyered up and punished us as consumers. If the choice is removed then people have only one place to go, and I can't abide by that. It's ugly business.
 
This isn't even that big of a case.

a) It affects older products

b) The damages are £600m just £200m more than Apple had to pay Nokia (plus Apple were then forced to buy a licence from Nokia)

c) Samsung are appealing so the amount awarded to Apple might further be reduced.
 
uk courts threw it out of court...

i guess the only courts they can win in are in the usa

That really doesn't mean much at all. Totaly different lega systems
Weaos woud. Never have people winning 100's of millions against cigarette companies as we have no punitive fines.
 
I know they charge double for RAM. That doesn't bother me.

It should.

Paying massively massively over the the odds for what is quite literally the same physical item just because you bought it from Apple.com instead of Crucial.com is just completely stupid.

Nothing to do with being a cheapskate, everything to do with not being a complete mug.
 
Double account :rolleyes: you really are deluded,not that you ca see this post.

you'll have to forgive me as I'm probably being thick. If you can't patent a phone ringing, a door bell, an email notification system. Why is it right to patent a list of notifications?

It's not a list of notifications that is being patented.
Neither has apple won a monopoly on tablets.
Neither could ford stop other people building cars etc etc etc.


Im pretty sure if apple can patent 'Enlarging documents by tapping the screen' then samsung should be granted a patent for the pull-down system.

]

Both patents are about methods and details neither are general.
 
It should.

Paying massively massively over the the odds for what is quite literally the same physical item just because you bought it from Apple.com instead of Crucial.com is just completely stupid.

Nothing to do with being a cheapskate, everything to do with not being a complete mug.

Massive maybe amounts?
The rrp compared to other top end phones/computers/tablets is pretty much identical. Or is the Samsung s3 massively overpriced as well?

I know your talking about component prices, but it's the total price that really matters.
 
Apple do steal ideas. Everyone does. The patent system is broken. What Apple do tend to do however is take a technology, do extensive user testing so it's robust and works well and then releases it.

I'm glad you put the word tend in there as a caveat but in their extensive user testing they either failed to notice the antenna problem in the iPhone 4 or the still sold the phone regardless. I think the latter is worse but it's a bit of a toss up especially as the advice was either "you're holding your phone wrong (you fool)" or "buy these bumpers to cover this flaw" - somewhat paraphrased for emphasis. I only include the example above to illustrate the response of Apple when something didn't go right and the first thing was to blame the consumers or to sell them something extra rather than holding their hands up and acknowledging the mistake.

I'd happily agree that they normally do lots of testing and for most people their products do work as advertised because they've got so much control over what is or is not allowed it makes it much easier to ensure everything does work together.

Massive maybe amounts?
The rrp compared to other top end phones/computers/tablets is pretty much identical. Or is the Samsung s3 massively overpriced as well?

I know your talking about component prices, but it's the total price that really matters.

If the total price for a premium laptop is say £1,500 and the price for a comparable Macbook is roughly the same at point of purchase then paying double on the Ram if you wanted to upgrade the Macbook would give you perhaps £1,600 for the laptop and £1,700 for the Macbook with what is effectively the same upgrade. Surely means that the total price is higher for a comparable product doesn't it?

I'd agree that Android isn't necessarily a (much) cheaper option, the phones will go from entry level to similarly premium price points. We can argue about the technology, the user experience or whatever but a lot of that comes down to personal preference.
 
It should.

Paying massively massively over the the odds for what is quite literally the same physical item just because you bought it from Apple.com instead of Crucial.com is just completely stupid.

Nothing to do with being a cheapskate, everything to do with not being a complete mug.

You don't have a choice now. Ram is now starting to be soldered to the logic board so you HAVE to purchase from apple... sure there are small advantages but we all know why it's happening. Same for SSD's too.
 
Massive maybe amounts?
The rrp compared to other top end phones/computers/tablets is pretty much identical. Or is the Samsung s3 massively overpriced as well?

I know your talking about component prices, but it's the total price that really matters.

:confused:

Not really sure why you're waffling about the RRP of a Galaxy S3, when i'm responding to someone saying they're happy to pay massively over the odds for a basic component upgrade just because of where it comes from, despite it being the same item.
 
USPTO is reviewing the patents used in the case according to google. So if these patents are made invalid then the case is then invalid?
 
USPTO is reviewing the patents used in the case according to google. So if these patents are made invalid then the case is then invalid?

I think that's how it works, it's also why if they get products banned, the company making the ban application has to put a huge money bond down, incase the ban is overturned. Then the company gets that bond as compensation.
381 the bounce back and 949 where both challenged in may, not sure what the results where though or if it's still ongoing.


Reasonably informative piece on patents around the world
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18709232
Especially the last few paragraphs.
about the defeat in uk does not mean a global win. As the tests and evidence need around the world is different. Especially in America.
Lost in uk but won in Germany and America.
 
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