Are NATO and the UN just full of useless ****s?

When the rebels thought they could win easily, they didn't want any help including a no fly zone, how things change now that they are loosing. If we deployed aircraft i bet it would only be about 6 as the RAF are stretched as it is and we are currently loosing squadrons, bases and manpower!
 
It's what they are designed for, and the generation of SAM systems and aircraft fielded by Libya is a hell of a long way behind what we have.

Libya have only 30-40 combat capable Mig-23s, and similar numbers at best of other types. These types represent a minimal threat to modern airforces. The same goes for their SAM capability, it is comprised of late cold war era soviet systems (SA-2, SA-3 & SA-5) which are very easily countered by modern aircraft.

Their airforce has not changed since they lost 4 aircraft to US Navy F-14A tomcats, we've moved on a lot since then.

Don't forget, we have AWACS, tankers and various ELINT aircraft, Libya don't even have their own pilots for the most part. Many of their pilots and maintence crews are sourced from overseas, the Balkan states for example and don't even have anything close to the level of training ours do.

Additionally, it depends what sort of no-fly zone was to be implemented, if it were the whole of Libya, then yes more aircraft than we could deploy would be needed to be effective. If however a smaller area were to be covered then we could do it.

Of course this is all acedemic, as we wouldn't be doing it alone anyway, and at present it doesn't look like it'll happen at all.

According to official figures Libya have: 124 MiG 23's, 104 MiG 25's, and a variety of older planes, however we don't know the air worthiness of any of them.

Its easy to say "Typhoon > Mig 23/25, we win lol" but air combat isn't that simple, planes don't destroy planes missiles do, in a recent war game the fabled F22 was shot down multiple times by F16's (a fighter from the same era/generation as the MiG-23).
 
lets not forget libya has loads of sam sites to... its not like iraq or afghanistan.

there is no way to force a no fly zone against gaddafi he would never allow it and i dont see why he sould.

if america push it to far hopefully china tell them to stop meddling where it doesnt belong
 
According to official figures Libya have: 124 MiG 23's, 104 MiG 25's, and a variety of older planes, however we don't know the air worthiness of any of them.

You/the internet may not, those who need to know, do.

Its easy to say "Typhoon > Mig 23/25, we win lol" but air combat isn't that simple, planes don't destroy planes missiles do, in a recent war game the fabled F22 was shot down multiple times by F16's (a fighter from the same era/generation as the MiG-23).

You're right, air combat is not that simple. I'll try and explain a few things to you.

Your example of F-16 vs F/A-22 is irrelevant. Why? Well, war games are a training tool, and as you don't know under what restrictions they were being conducted or what the aim of the engagement is question was, you canot draw any meaningful conclusions from the result.

Air combat exercises are not like top gun in the real world they are often not simple 1v1, 2v2, 4v4 engagements where pilots try and kill each other. For example, Typhoons regularly go up and play 'airliner' for other types to practice intercepts. Likewise exercises are conducted where the aim is within visual range engagements, and aircraft may again be acting in the same way as other types. For example, they may be limited in speed or type of weapons they can use, the list goes on and on. So as I've said already, without knowing the parameters of the exercise you cannot draw any conclusions from it.

If all the restrictions are removed from the F-22 and it's pilots, it will easily dominate any other type in service anywhere in the world. And the same goes for Typhoon/Rafale (apart from the Raptor).

Now the F-16 may be from the same era and the Mig-23, but they are not even close to being the same. The F-16 currently in service is the F-16C block 50 (and beyond) it is nothing like the F-16A apart from it's shape. And even the A model out performed the Soviet Mig-23. Then of course you have to consider that the Russian do not sell their aircraft with the same equipment they use themselves (just like us), a Russian Mig-XX will be superior to the corresponding export model.

As for weapons, the Mig-23MLD (which is newer than the varient operated by Libya) is capable of carrying the AA-11 and AA-10, these are rather old and outdated, again easily countered by modern aircraft. The radar in the Mig-23 is massively outclassed by even the radar sets in the F-16C, let alone the Typhoon/Raptor/Rafale etc, and with it's outdated radar waring receiver the Libyan pilots really wouldn't have a clue they were even being engaged let alone be able to fight back.

I really suggest you read up of the capabilities of modern combat aircraft, you'll then see why this isn't as difficult as you currently believe.

Of course, this is not to say there is no threat, just that it is perfectly manageable. And I've made no concessions for the political situation. Personally I don't believe a no-fly zone will be put into place, at least by the west.




lets not forget libya has loads of sam sites to... its not like iraq or afghanistan.

Actually, it's exactly like Iraq in 1991. Which suits our tactics and technology more than current operations.
 
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Ahem,
we aren't the naive population that decided to kick off at a mental dictator without a Plan A or a Plan B.
Sitting in internet cafe's blogging about how crap life is, doesn't make them any good in a civil war.

The thought of touching yet another stupid Muslim country with a bargepole doesn't appeal,
I think the message should be that 'we'd like to help, but as you were all such a bunch of whiners about the last time we tried to help your useless countries, then sorry we can't be bothered this time, someone might get a splinter'

Thanks for all the oil btw, we look forward to buying more oil off whoever wins.

TTFN
 
1) Colonel Gadaffi has anti air weapons
2) They will start shooting at our planes
3) Our planes will think 'Right, let's shoot back at them'
4) The tank parked and soldiers stationed (deliberately) right next to the anti-air battery will inevitably be hit.
5) Colonel Gadaffi screams 'SEE - The foreign imperialists are waging a air campaign against Libya to get our oil and control us just like I said they would.'
6) The rebels (which, important, HATE foreigners as much as Gadaffi and DO NOT WANT OUR HELP) - think 'er .. good point' - some of them think 'The dirty foreigners are going to take this opportunity to control Libya' and either stop fighting gadaffi or join him
7) A load of RAF pilots die, and Libyan terrorists start blowing up trains in central London
8) You write on this very board 'What a mess we made of Libya, those stupid people'
 
With an E3 on patrol over the med, the Typhoons probably wouldn't even need to switch on their radar. I don't think a no fly zone over the whole country would be practicable but the populated coastal strip could be done. I doubt the Libyan airforce would even take off and in that case the Typhoons wouldn't even need to get into SAM range.

An Ark Royal, as suggested earlier, would have absolutely no use whatsoever other than to be a potential liability.
 
The way they are dealing with libya is a bloody joke.
They are all in their comfy chairs on their fat arses doing a whole lot of nothing while thousands of people die!

How hard is it to actually set up a no fly zone anyway? Why do they have to have meeting after damn meeting to decide what to do?
Its a load of bs! They have already burnt there bridges with gadafi so they may aswell help the rebals remove him. If he does regain control i doubt he's going to be happy with anyone in the west.

Its so damn frustrating watching them waist so much time.

Surely the counties like the uk and france that want to help can go ahead and do it with out everyone else. After all they only need to keep the sits clear. They don't need to deploy any troops.

It looks like nato need to take a leaf out of the saudis book on how to help people which ask for help.

Sorry for the format this is written in. Its done on a phone

The UK doesn't have the military means to spare to go it alone or with France, the UK has been cough with its pants down militarily. Our government has only just figured that out and it is not the first time a Tory government has cut at the military only to find it needed them.
 
You have to laugh at how two faced the Arabs are

Syrian political analyst,
"Arabs are capable to solve their own problems without any foreign intervention," he said. "It is the oil, not Arab blood, that Washington and its allies care about."

next
Syria sends planes to bomb the rebels :rolleyes:

Uh huh, not lying much there at all are you Syria?

last week, the wonderful Arab League was totally against a no fly zone,
this week they are all for a no fly zone :rolleyes:

I think give them the ball back and say whatever happens in Liyba is now entirely down to the Arab League, you've got enough planes between you to sort this out so get on with it you lying bunch of hypocrites.
 
On one hand, any military that uses its bombs against the people they meant to protect deserve to get a beating. On the other, we are great at ruining entire countries, so should probably just let it brew.

OH WAIT, OIL
 
Surely the counties like the uk and france that want to help can go ahead and do it with out everyone else. After all they only need to keep the sits clear. They don't need to deploy any troops.

How would they go about helping..

An invasion force needs to be formed up and the UK/ France have hardly any troops to do pretty much anything..

I mean have a look at afghan
 
No country in the UN should have the right of veto.

I'm a bit curious here. Why not? Or perhaps I should ask why should being a member of the UN force you to participate in actions that you believe to be fundamentally wrong? If that's the case then presumably you just leave the UN instead.

I've got to admit my first thought on reading the thread title was KNiVES' signature, it has the beauty of being both simple and succinct political comment - whether you agree with it or not is another matter.
 
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