Arizona nine-year old in Uzi gun lesson accident

Soldato
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The law with a time limit was for "assault weapons" and actually had nothing to do with automatic weapons, fully automatic guns weren't affected by it as they were already restricted. You can own a fully automatic weapon if it was registered before 1986 and there's a bunch of extra checks and a tax to pay for owning one.
 
Soldato
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Didn't really notice any difference when I was in the US compared to here in that regard. 99% of people have a fairly rational approach to it the problem in the US is they don't really address that 1% the same way as other countries do.

Is it possible to address that 1% though?

If you look at the situation more closely - human beings have a tendency to get upset, get into altercations, lose control and have breakdowns, it happens all the time - everybody flies off the handle at some point or another for whatever reason, it will always happen.

I think that if you couple an environment of readily available firearms, alongside human beings who have a tendency to become highly volatile from time to time, then you end up with the exact problem you have in the US - high amounts of gun related death, and the bizarre phenomena of "grievance killing" like Sandy Hook/Columbine/etc, where people just fly off the handle with the tools to commit mass death at their side.

In the UK, it seems we're no stranger to violence - we have our fair share of crime, but people aren't routinely blown away on a daily basis like they are in the US, I feel as though things are somewhat capped here - that they simply cannot escalate like they can in a gun rich environment..

But in all this, I have no idea how you improve the situation in the US, whilst I think it's obvious that guns are a major cause of the problem I don't think it's actually possible to remove them from general circulation.
 
Soldato
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Because it's not relevant. What is relevant is the number of people dying needlessly every single year just because people think it's their right to own a gun. Maybe if you were directly affected by a gun death in your family, you wouldn't hold such flaccid and insipid views on the subject.

Everything is relevant when you approach an issue from the middle instead of one of two extremes. I said you were less than complimentary - you're also less than capable of responding without deriding contrary views to your own.
Better you crusade about the number of people who needlessly die from poverty and starvation every year.

It really doesn't change the picture if you scale the deaths: is 30,000 vs 250 painting a different picture to 30,000 vs 65?

Well, that's why I said he had a point, and that the statistics were not directly scalable. Break the numbers of firearm related deaths down - accidental / murder / suicide and we'd have a more accurate picture to examine.
I mentioned firearms and archery in the same sentence, not because they are comparable, but because there's plenty of people who would like to legislate one based on the other as if they were so, and a possible reasoning behind this - Silver's post is another example of the kind of emotional argument I mean, and not a very well articulated one at that.


111 deaths/million vs 1 death/million, it's still a vastly significant difference ;)

I'm not disputing that at all, just making the point that comparing a leisure activity to one which is a necessity to some, and a huge convenience to most, is utterly irrelevant.

Well, surely if there was an age limit or total ban on certain weapons, then that 9 year old girl would never have gotten her hands on an uzi, and the instructor would still be alive... (other than in the most extreme cases where the parents decide "sure, lets take our under-age 9 year old to fire an illegal firearm at a dodgy firing range, what could possibly go wrong?" :p)

The older I get the more I come to the conclusion that people just don't want to take responsibility for their decisions, particularly when they make a bad one. This case is a perfect example of this trait in action.
I would not have chosen to allow a 9 year old girl to fire that kind of weapon, certainly not without knowing her prior experience with firearms first - that would have given me a clue as to the probable dangers of such a course of action in letting her have a go. Supervised or not.
Plinking some tin cans with a .22 rimfire is more the level of shooting I would have considered appropriate, but some people choose differently. Complacently even. The parents for thinking that kind of weapon handling for a 9 year old girl (who in the video clip did not look like she was familiar with holding any type of gun) was ok. The instructor for not overruling them and relying on his experience, or lack of, to dictate his actions when he should have known better.

I don't doubt that reducing the number of firearms would have an impact on reducing gun deaths of a certain type*, but I'm sure if you compared the number of legally held firearms to the attributable deaths because of firearms we would be looking at some much less headline grabbing statistics. Examine that further with legally held firearms involved in a murder, or a suicide - then compare these figures to illegally held guns in the same areas, then I think we'd have a better idea as to what is really going on.

All in all what happened could have been prevented, not by making laws, or banning things, but by people thinking about their actions and their consequences.


* We banned handguns and other types of firearm here because 'won't somebody please think of the children' reactions to nutters who shouldn't have been allowed within a country mile of a pointy stick, let alone guns. But until then, we didn't have a 'problem' any more than we have now, as the vast majority of gun owners in this country then, same as now, are law abiding people. We have more of a problem with stabbings than we've ever had with firearms. In fact taking those legally held firearms away has not stopped criminals from using guns in crime - which was the point of the ban in the first place.
 
Soldato
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Everything is relevant when you approach an issue from the middle instead of one of two extremes. I said you were less than complimentary - you're also less than capable of responding without deriding contrary views to your own.
Better you crusade about the number of people who needlessly die from poverty and starvation every year.

Yeah whatever dude. You seem to be talking crap, so now let me talk some to you.

Hello my name is Jimmy Pop and I'm a dumb white guy.
I'm not old or new but middle school, fifth grade like junior high.
I don't know mofo' if y'all peeps be buggin' give props to my ho 'cause she fly.
But I can take the heat 'cause I'm the other white meat known as Kid Funky Fry.
Yeah I'm hung like planet Pluto hard to see with the naked eye.
But if I crashed into Uranus I would stick it where the sun don't shine.
Cause I'm kind of like Han Solo always strokin' my own wookie.
I'm the root of all that's evil yeah but you can call me Cookie.


That's basically what I think of your posts in this thread Jumpy. I hope you're not offended and I hope you can find that perfect guy to settle down with. In the mean time live long and prosper. Eat healthily, exercise weekly, and try to be nice to those other mammals around you.
 
Associate
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This kid is going to have to grow up knowing that she killed someone. The fact that she was put in a situation where that was possible, at the age of 9 years old, is absolute madness.
 
Man of Honour
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Is it possible to address that 1% though?

If you look at the situation more closely - human beings have a tendency to get upset, get into altercations, lose control and have breakdowns, it happens all the time - everybody flies off the handle at some point or another for whatever reason, it will always happen.

I think that if you couple an environment of readily available firearms, alongside human beings who have a tendency to become highly volatile from time to time, then you end up with the exact problem you have in the US - high amounts of gun related death, and the bizarre phenomena of "grievance killing" like Sandy Hook/Columbine/etc, where people just fly off the handle with the tools to commit mass death at their side.

In the UK, it seems we're no stranger to violence - we have our fair share of crime, but people aren't routinely blown away on a daily basis like they are in the US, I feel as though things are somewhat capped here - that they simply cannot escalate like they can in a gun rich environment..

But in all this, I have no idea how you improve the situation in the US, whilst I think it's obvious that guns are a major cause of the problem I don't think it's actually possible to remove them from general circulation.

Not entirely no, but there is a big problem with the US where these 1% issues tend not to get addressed largely due to a mixture of both mental health not being seen the same way there as it is here and the emotive matter of the 2nd amendment compounding the problem.

One thing to bare in mind is that they tend to have a higher level of familiarisation on the subject of emotive escalation with access to firearms and a bit better discipline through heightened awareness of the subject (none the least many don't want to do anything that could hand uh ammunition to those against the 2nd amendment rights) - albeit that is a long long way from any kind of safeguard.
 
Man of Honour
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I was under the impression that fully automatic weapons were banned in the US and have been since the 80's, either under Reagan or Bush Sr.?

Different laws as well for proper firing ranges, etc. some individuals have licenses to own (which covers other people using them in restricted circumstances) weapons that aren't permitted to just anyone.
 
Soldato
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The Second Amendment needs to be torn up. It's just not relevant in the 21st century.

That is ridiculous. They need to take a leaf out of the UK law on guns, and a ban on fully automatic weapons unless you are in the forces.

This is nothing to do with the Second Amendment or firearm laws. Fully automatic weapons are banned to the average person both in the UK and in the US, however certain individuals can acquire fully automatic weapons on dealer licences. There are people in this country with UZIs, they just don't let children use them though, and most in the US wouldn't either.

In this case, the man was killed because of carelessness, not because of firearm laws.
 
Soldato
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This is nothing to do with the Second Amendment or firearm laws.

It has everything to do with it as this is the statute that allows citizens to own guns, hence the 30,000 deaths a year in the US compared to the 65 in the UK

Fully automatic weapons are banned to the average person both in the UK and in the US, however certain individuals can acquire fully automatic weapons on dealer licences.

So not banned then if certain individuals can obtain them. Quit the hyperbole. Most school shootings and other massacres in the US are carried out by nutters with automatic weapons. Obviously being a nutter doesn't stop you getting the guns.


In this case, the man was killed because of carelessness, not because of firearm laws.

Yeah. Can't you see what nonsense you are talking ? Why the hell should a nine year child be firing a weapon in the first place ? They're not even trusted with cars till they are 16 in the US. Of course it's the firearm laws that are at fault. Stop trolling.
 
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Soldato
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We don't have the Second Amendment, yet this could have happened here, so it has nothing to do with it. If you're talking about the 30,000 deaths a year, that's another matter, but this case wasn't a result of the Second Amendment.

Refuting your views also does not make me a troll.
 
Caporegime
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You can't use suicide numbers in the chance of being killed by a gun

You can't just put numbers together like that either


Trying to take guns away from America is like trying to take alcohol away from UK
It's a right to them
 
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Soldato
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We don't have the Second Amendment here, yet this could have happened here, so it has nothing to do with it. If you're talking about the 30,000 deaths a year, that's another matter, but this case wasn't a result of the Second Amendment.

How could it have happened here ? What are you babbling about ? Name one place in the UK where a nine year girl can be shown how to use an automatic weapon.

I never said this case was a result of the second amendment but without the second amendment, gun ranges like this would not be open to children, so there is a causal link.

Guns have one purpose. To kill. If you're pro gun for civilians then you're scum in my eyes. I can't be any clearer than that.
 
Soldato
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How could it have happened here ? What are you babbling about ? Name one place in the UK where a nine year girl can be shown how to use an automatic weapon.

I can't, but then again I can't give you an example of a place in the USA either. The point is there is nothing in law that prevents it on either side of the ocean, only judgement of the armourers.
 
Man of Honour
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How could it have happened here ? What are you babbling about ? Name one place in the UK where a nine year girl can be shown how to use an automatic weapon.

I never said this case was a result of the second amendment but without the second amendment, gun ranges like this would not be open to children, so there is a causal link.

Guns have one purpose. To kill. If you're pro gun for civilians then you're scum in my eyes. I can't be any clearer than that.

Thats a very narrow minded view.

The cadets in the UK get live weapons fire instruction and if they pass a high enough level get to train on fully automatic variants - not sure on the age restrictions though. (EDIT: Looks like youngest age would be 12).
 
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Soldato
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I can't, but then again I can't give you an example of a place in the USA either.

Now I know you're trolling. You say you can't give me an example of a place in the US where a nine year girl would be shown how to use automatic weapons even though you're posting in a thread about a nine year old girl in the US being shown how to use automatic weapons that resulted in a death.

Stay off the weed m8.
 
Associate
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As I see it there are two main issues here.

A 9 year old being able to hold (let alone fire) a full automatic gun. That is just absolutely ******** insane. Why on earth does a 9 year old need to be firing a gun?

The people in charge (I.e. first and foremost parents, secondly the instructor) are just beyond words really. I'm no expert on guns but I'd imagine the recoil on that uzi is very scary (at first) even for an adult who is accustomed to firing guns. The trainer literally tells her to fire one shot, put her in a "firing stance" then stands in the way of where the recoil is going to drag that poor child's tiny arms.

The instructor is a moron and the parents failed their child by letting and making a child do such things and the result? One dead and most likely a child scared for life.

For as much as the USA is the most powerful, advanced and wealthy country in the world they really do have some stupid laws (being able to fire a gun like that at 9 years old, but not being able to drink till 21?), and some really really realllllllllllly idiotic people


*Edit*

2008: "There was a case in 2008 where an eight year old child accidentally shot himself in the head at a Gun Expo using a "micro-uzi""
2011: Father is "teaching" 8 year old son how to fire a Uzi and it backfires killing him.


Those are just two I dug up in a few seconds, I'm sure accidents or near misses have happened plenty of times. Kids (hell even 99% of adults) have no business owning or firing guns.
 
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Soldato
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Thats a very narrow minded view.

The cadets in the UK get live weapons fire instruction and if they pass a high enough level get to train on fully automatic variants - not sure on the age restrictions though.

Not narrow minded at all. I served my time in the R.A.F. and had extensive weapons training. Probably the reason I'm so anti gun. I know what these guns can do first hand. They are not toys and should never be given to children, even with adult supervision as this latest tragedy explicitly shows.
 
Man of Honour
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As I see it there are two main issues here.

A 9 year old being able to hold (let alone fire) a full automatic gun. That is just absolutely ******** insane. Why on earth does a 9 year old need to be firing a gun?

The people in charge (I.e. first and foremost parents, secondly the instructor) are morons. I'm no expert on guns but I'd imagine the recoil on that uzi is very scary (at first) even for an adult who is accustomed to firing guns. The trainer literally tells her to fire one shot, put her in a "firing stance" then stands in the way of where the recoil is going to drag that poor child's tiny arms.

The instructor is a moron and the parents failed their child by letting and making a child do such things the result is one dead and most likely a child scared for life.

For as much as the USA is the most powerful, advanced and wealthy country in the world they really do have some stupid laws (being able to fire a gun like that at 9 years old, but not being able to drink till 21?), and some really really realllllllllllly idiotic people


See the video I posted earlier - adults struggle with it let alone children. I'm not against children having weapons instruction but there is absolutely no way under any metric a child should have a loaded, automatic fire, Uzi in their hands.
 
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